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Philips CD723 measurements

audio_tony

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Measurements of a Philips CD723.

From memory, this was a bottom of the line (or close to) player. It mostly measured as expected, however it had some real issues with the IMD, multitone and jitter measurements, all of which raised the noise floor considerably.

I do seem to recall that this player was quite popular with 'modders' back in the day however, so it must have had something going for it.

It is of course possible that my example is faulty / requires recapping - it is rather old now, and never been opened as far as I can see.

NOTE: The caption in the first graph should read -0.1dB not -0.06.

My test setup: Asus Xonar STX sound card with a self built buffer / gain box in front of that. Host PC is an Intel i7 running Windows 10 with 32G RAM and SSD - no mechanical disks or CDROM drive present.
I also use an Altor Audio Olivine-2 ADC, however the Asus Xonar was used these measurements.
Sound card input was set to 24bit/96kHz
REW was configured as per the recommendations in the post from @NTTY

Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -0.06dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -1dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -3dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -6dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -30dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -60dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 999.9Hz -90dB.jpg
Philips-CD723 IMD 19+20kHz.jpg
Philips-CD723 jitter.jpg
Philips-CD723 multitone.jpg
Philips-CD723 noise.jpg
Philips-CD723 response.jpg
Philips-CD723 separation 1kHz.jpg
Philips-CD723 separation 10kHz.jpg
Philips-CD723 separation 100Hz.jpg
 
I had one of these some years back and 'modded it' with suggestions by Lampizator I recall - easy to work on the small main board . Not sure it made the slightest subjective difference at all, but it was usable as transport, as I didn't butcher the digital output as also recommended. When I was gifted a nicer Denon DCD-1015 (a MUCH better player for the senses all round I discovered), I gave the Philips away to a pal who I think still uses it occasionally.


No idea if anyone else feels this, but a touch of noise at or below -75dB doesn't necessarily hur the listening experience. In face, I recall it said that said once that noise can enhance the listening experience. No idea at all if ano of you lot would even begin to agree and it matters not to me now, as I can listen to UK FM BBC Radio 4 and 3 with no issues regarding background noise (the other BBC stations suffer hugely from compression in comparison). U thirteen bit FM is around -70 to -75dB S/N isn't it?
 
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Holy moly, that thing has some jitter issues. I guess the fact that it has the processor/filter on one board and the (multibit) DAC on another wouldn't exactly be helping in that regard, but this stinks. I wonder what a scope with a 10X probe would say to the BCLK, WCLK and DATA signals, and whether there's any modding potential at all (not the Lampizator nonsense, obviously). Oh, and it uses the infamous SAA7378 processor, too (the one that applies a small level reduction crudely at 16 bit with truncation even to digital output). What a steaming pile.
BTW, the FR is just about useless like that. Try 1/48 smoothing and a bunch more averaging with like a 10 dB vertical scale instead, and nobody ever got hurt by including some of the out-of-band filter response either.
 
BTW, the FR is just about useless like that. Try 1/48 smoothing and a bunch more averaging with like a 10 dB vertical scale instead, and nobody ever got hurt by including some of the out-of-band filter response either.
I'll bear that in mind.

I actually have a proper analogue sweep (~10Hz to 45kHz) that I generated from my signal generator and digitsed. I should probably start using this instead.

Incidentally I suspected that something was wrong with this player so I took a look at the FFT and it's jumping all over the place, which due to the smoothing etc I'm using in REW I didn't see.
 
I actually have a proper analogue sweep (~10Hz to 45kHz) that I generated from my signal generator and digitsed. I should probably start using this instead.
Sine sweeps are kind of notorious for requiring very precise clock alignment, but it's certainly worth a try. Probably depends on what you're using for an algorithm. (RMAA uses MLS sweeps, which may be one of the best but are fairly timing-critical as well.)

If it were me I'd be tending towards using pink noise to have the same energy in every octave (check "Adjust RTA levels" in REW), otherwise the bottom end is going to be relatively poorly-defined on a log frequency scale.
 
Sine sweeps are kind of notorious for requiring very precise clock alignment
This is what I get if I play the sweep back in WaveSpectra. FFT is 'Flat top' and size is 4096.

If I try to narrow down the amplitude to improve the scale is does go a bit awry though!

1731701309245.png
 
Hello Everyone,

Let me add my two cents, as I do usually, in a lighter version.

Philips CD 723 - Measurements (Analog out - From CD)

I described my measurements in the post “More than we hear”, and as I reported them for the Onkyo C-733 review. Over time, this will help comparing the devices I reviewed.

The Philips CD 723 outputs a high 2.44Vrms. The two channels were matched at 0.03dB (very good).

Let's start with the standard 999.91Hz sine @0dBFS (without dither) from my test CD (RCA out):

PhilipsCD723_999.91Hz_0dBFS_LR_RCA.jpg


Left channel is a little noisier than right, and right channel has more distortion. We are basically missing 1bit of resolution, so 6dB are lost here.

Same but at -6dBFS:

PhilipsCD723_999.91Hz_-6dBFS_LR_RCA.jpg


You can also apperciate no power supply related spuria, which is not so often. But that's also explained by the relatively high random noise floor.

Bandwidth is within -0.3dB (not shown), nothing of concern.

The multitone test confirms that we get only 15bits of true resolution:

PhilipsCD723_MT.jpg


The JTest is decent:

PhilipsCD723_JTest.jpg


We see very low side bands but some low level noise as well.

I like to share the THD vs Frequency @-12dBFS, as it's proven to be a key differentiator in many cases:

PhilipsCD723_THDvsFreq.jpg


This is an overlay of left and right channels together with on channel of the Denon DCD-900NE. The Philips has roughly 10dB more distorsion and it's noise dominated in low frequencies. We are far from best in class, but it's still a challenge to hear into music.

Started with the Teac VRDS-20 review, and on your request + support to get it done (more here), I'm adding now an "intersample-overs" test which intends to identify the behavior of the digital filtering and DAC when it come to process near clipping signals. Because of the oversampling, there might be interpolated data that go above 0dBFS and would saturate (clip) the DAC and therefore the output. And this effect shows through distorsion (THD+N measurement up to 96kHz):

Intersample-overs tests
Bandwidth of the THD+N measurements is 20Hz - 96kHz
5512.5 Hz sine,
Peak = +0.69dBFS
7350 Hz sine,
Peak = +1.25dBFS
11025 Hz sine,
Peak = +3.0dBFS
Teac VRDS-20-30.7dB-26.6dB-17.6dB
Yamaha CD-1 (Non-Oversampling CD Player)-79.6dB-35.3dB-78.1dB
Onkyo C-733-79.8dB-29.4dB-21.2dB
Denon DCD-900NE-34.2dB-27.1dB-19.1dB
Philips CD 723 (Output Volume at max)-48.3dB-31.0dB-20.7dB
Philips CD 723 (Output Volume -1.5dB)-54.6dB-67.9dB-23.2dB
Philips CD 723 (Output Volume -3dB)-54.6dB-67.9dB-41.1dB

I kept some references and will keep the same for other reviews, so you can quickly compare. The Philips CD 723 has digital volume obviously done via an ASRC prior to the conversion. That's the reason why I've put 3 references, at max Volume, and then at -1.5dB and -3dB.
Initially the Philips has no headroom to process intersample overs. But when the volume is digitally reduced in the ASRC (the interpolator), then the headroom increases accordingly, which is logical. So on that perspective, if you're worried about that type of distorsion, you can solve the issue by slightly reducing the output volume.

Stereophile was often using the 3DC measurement as a prof of low noise DAC. It is from an undithered 997Hz sine at -90.31dBFS. With 16bits, the signal should appear (on a scope) as the 3DC levels of the smallest symmetrical sign magnitude 16bits PCM signal:

PhilipsCD723_3DC_RCA_VolMax_E1AD.jpg


There is a lot of noise in this view and symmetry is not ensured. This is not good result, demonstrating again that we roughly miss 1 bit of resolution in this player.

Other measurements (not shown):
  • IMD AES-17 DFD "Analog" (18kHz & 20kHz 1:1) : -72.4dB
  • IMD AES-17 DFD "Digital" (17'987Hz & 19'997Hz 1:1) : -71.1dB
  • IMD AES-17 MD (41Hz & 7993Hz 4:1): -75.3dB
  • IMD CCIF (19kHz & 20kHz 1:1) : -74.3dB
  • IMD TDFD (13'58Hz & 19841Hz 1:1) : -86.5dB
  • IMD TDFD Bass (41Hz & 89Hz 1:1) : -80.8dB
  • IMD SMPTE (60Hz & 7kHz 1:4) : -70.6dB
  • Dynamic Range : 95.3dB (from 1khz @-60dBFS)
  • Crosstalk: -94dB (100Hz), -92dB (1kHz), -89dB (10kHz)
  • Linearity : -80dB
  • Pitch Error : 19'999.13Hz (19'997Hz requested) ie -0.0106% (106ppm)
The above are on the low end of what I usually measure. The pitch error is also higher than usual as the clock does not do better than 106ppm precision. I also see that it varies with the temperature.

The player looses linearity, even from dithered signal, as early as -80dB (0.52dB deviation), while many others have no issue going beyond -100dB.


Philips CD 723 - Testing the drive

What would be good measurements if the drive would not properly read a slightly scratched CD, or one that was created at the limits of the norm? The below tests reply to these questions.

Test typeTechnical testResults
Variation of linear cutting velocityFrom 1.20m/s to 1.40m/sPass
Variation of track pitchFrom 1.5µm to 1.7µmPass
Combined variations of track pitch and velocityFrom 1.20m/s & 1.5µm to 1.40m/s & 1.7µmPass
HF detection (asymmetry pitch/flat ratio)Variation from 2% to 18%Pass
Dropouts resistanceFrom 0.05mm (0.038ms) to 4mm (3.080ms)Up to 2mm.
Combined dropouts and smallest pitchFrom 1.5µm & 1mm to 1.5µm & 2.4mmUp to 2mm.
Successive dropoutsFrom 2x0.1mm to 2x3mmUp to 1.5mm.

The drive of the Philips CD 723 was able to consistently continue playing, without generating typical digital clicks, with dropouts of up to 2mm. The interpolation effect was easy to hear when it kicked-off (at 1.5mm dropouts) and the Philips did not fail to maintain a constant flow with up to 2.4mm dropouts (with lots of clicks). The CD 723 had no issue with variable linear velocity and/or track pitch, as well as with HF detection. These are decent results.


Philips CD 723 - Measurements (Digital out)

The pitch error, which is due to lack of clock precision, prevented me from performing high precision analysis of the digital output. Indeed, when looking at the digital signal, I can see frequency variations since there's no PLL in that case.

For that reason, I don't have high resolution FFT to show, because I get too many windowing error. But by reducing the FFT Length, I can get my computer to be fast enough to capture a usable view (999.91Hz @0dBFS):

1740671903492.png


You will notice that the software does not see the signal at 0dBFS (but at -0.56dBFS) which means the digital signal is modified before reaching the output. This is not what is on the test CD. In other words, it's not bit perfect. That said, we don't suffer from additional distortion components, as I could see them with the Fiio DM13 for instance.

This is probably again the effect of an internal ASRC as I see the digital output can be attenuated by the remote control.


Conclusion

Volume control done via an ASRC might be practical but it comes with reduction of resolution and impacts the digital output too, in this Philips CD player.

This was low cost CD player at the time, and the max resolution of this player does not go beyond 15bits in the best case scenario.
 
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You will notice that the software does not see the signal at 0dBFS (but at -0.56dBFS) which means the digital signal is modified before reaching the output. This is not what is on the test CD. In other words, it's not bit perfect.
As expected:
Oh, and it uses the infamous SAA7378 processor, too (the one that applies a small level reduction crudely at 16 bit with truncation even to digital output).
Hence why low-level linearity is poor, too.

The most high-profile players to use this chip would have been the Marantz CD4000 and CD5000.
 
Oh, ok, I missed your previous replies! I see this servo control / decoder has en embedded oversampling filter too, and volume control. so that's it. But really, why doing it wrong when it can be done correctly? And is it only an effect of the SAA7378 or its implementation here. Anyways, player on its way for recycle.
 
But really, why doing it wrong when it can be done correctly?
If I may speculate: It was the late '90s. CD mastering levels were downright exploding around '97, and overs were becoming a problem. So the IC design may have been updated at the last minute, and this rather crude approach was all they could do.
 
If I may speculate: It was the late '90s. CD mastering levels were downright exploding around '97, and overs were becoming a problem. So the IC design may have been updated at the last minute, and this rather crude approach was all they could do.
Hmmm, interesting. At least I measured the positive impact of that :cool:
 
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