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Philharmonic BMR Speaker Review

GelbeMusik

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... text only can be a bit messy, some image and good english would help. ... makes such questions superflous.

Nope, a basic scientific understanding would help a lot. It's obvious that people prefer to dodge AES papers than to actually find anything out. Man, man, man, man.

No one wants to see this speaker's flaws because some do-gooder knitted it.

It also shows how unreliable the Olive rating is when you deviate only slightly from the usual.

I'm just quoting one of the comments that illustrates the dilemma:

"The suggestion that the Raal is the achilles heel in the BMR is absolutely baffling to me, and I can only conclude this is one of those cases where the things being measured (distortion, vertical dispersion) have absolutely no correlation to the audible sound you hear, or at least the average listener's preference for that sound."

There's nothing you can do about it, learned is learned. It's crazy.
 

Ericglo

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Question for you guys:
I try to do video reviews of speakers I test. I'm pretty bogged down right now with speakers I need to review. Do you guys see a need for this one to be rolled up in to a video? I'm erring on punting and moving on to other tests.

Here's a link to my YT channel to get an idea of the reviews I do:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW_IqM21u0J-zsKtCq4Gj2w


YT is a very, very popular format for reviews. And with all the YT reviewers these days, I thought I could do something different with my channel by offering objective data, *actually be critical of crappy stuff* and teach what the data means and why it is important. Without that, I feel the divide will continue with the subjective vs objective crowds. Relatively speaking, few people will come to this site to view the data; they want to watch a video of someone talking about how it sounds. If I can use that as my “bait” to get them to also learn about measurements then it’s more useful than just hoping they’ll want to come to a data-oriented site and then take the time to research, and learn what it means. So, I absolutely will create YT videos for reviews. Just not all of them.

It’s just that this is a DIY design that probably won’t be looked for on YT because people who are building/buying this probably know already the importance of measurements and have (or will have) seen the data. Thus, my reasons for moving on to the next review.


While I agree that this is not as well known as some other speakers, it does have a following. You might be surprised at how much traffic this speaker receives.
 

overg

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Erin, from the very last part of your post on SPL (currently post 77 by my thread),

*SNIP*
  • Max SPL for 20Hz to 20kHz is approximately 99dB @ 1 meter. The compression threshold was exceeded above this SPL.
  • Max SPL for 20Hz to 20kHz is approximately 102dB @ 1 meter. The compression threshold was exceeded above this SPL.

Should that last entry read "Max SPL for 80Hz to 20kHz...," or did I just get confused at some point down the line of your post? Either way, really cool stuff.


And on the subject of videos, Dennis has announced that the BMRs are returning in slightly altered form later this year. I would expect that would drive interest in Youtube reviews, even for the older version.

As someone who literally searched every corner of the web he could find for reviews of the BMR before buying, I know I sure as hell would have appreciated having a video review of the caliber you've been making when I was in the market.
 
OP
hardisj

hardisj

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Erin, from the very last part of your post on SPL (currently post 77 by my thread),

Should that last entry read "Max SPL for 80Hz to 20kHz...," or did I just get confused at some point down the line of your post? Either way, really cool stuff.

Yes. That's a typo. I fixed it. Will fix it on my site later.
 

napilopez

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Dennis, of course You defend Your product. And for the sake of Your right to do so I won't go into an argument. As far as I understood Your response You would anyway emphasize Your and others subjective impression, which actually is not my field. I cannot fill the gap between the objective data and the highlighted statement above. Nope, any 19mm dome would do better, but that is it from my side.

:cool:

Btw, Your commercial interest shines through a bit. That's o/k with me.

:)

I'm still waiting to see this super 0.75-inch dome design at this price point with comparably wide directivity :) As @ctrl said, I do not know of any small dome that improves on the RAAL in horizontal directivity width. I certainly have not seen it in a commercial design. Even if it does exist, it would be in a very small group.

As far as I'm concerned, until this point is proven, I do not think you have solid ground to criticize Dennis's choice of the ribbon, as you have multiple times. In this thread you are now implying it is a primarily a subjective choice rather than one of making an educated compromise, which strikes me as misguided.

Ultimately it's very simple. If distortion is of utmost importance to the listener, then the listener should buy another speaker. But to me and others it is obvious that directivity plays a more important role in what sounds better to most people's ears, and there is nothing inherently wrong with the choice of the ribbon in order to achieve some of the widest directivity available.

Some have said a couple more dB extension in horizontal directivitt doesn't matter, but I respectfully disagree.

Let's do a thought experiment. In some studies, in order to test the effects of sidewall reflections, researchers use an anechoic chamber and fake the 'walls' with surround speakers set to a delay that replicates a wall bounce.

Assuming you start with 'perfect' zero-distortion speakers, what do you think would have a more noticeable effect to the listener while listening to music (not a test tone)?
a) increasing the distortion of the speakers to match the what is provided by the RAAL
b) Decreasing the SPL level of the 'side speakers' by ~3dB in the last couple of octaves (even while level matching total SPL).

Idk about you, but to me situation b seems far more audible, and I'd wager it that for most listeners, it would probably sound worse too(because most listeners seem to prefer louder sidewall reflections).

Whether or not I'm right, the point is to illustrate that a few dB and Hertz extra of wide directivity is not trivial.

So yes, distortion is a flaw with this speaker, but no, I'm not sure there was a better way of achieving similarly wide dispersion without an estoeric design and price.

P.S I'm also not sure there's any benefit to having wider vertical directivity unless you listen from up close with large angle variations. Wider vertical directivity is arguably a bad thing since both floor and ceiling reflections are known to be far more detrimental than their sidewall counterparts. Unless you're talking about a coaxial with perfect verticals, all wider vertical directivity seems to do is exacerbate audibility of lobing as the dips become more pronounced relative to overall SPL level.
 
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Dennis Murphy

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I'm still waiting to see this super 0.75-inch dome design at this price point with comparably wide directivity :) As @ctrl said, I do not know of any small dome that improves on the RAAL in horizontal directivity width. I certainly have not seen it in a commercial design. Even if it does exist, it would be in a very small group.

As far as I'm concerned, until this point is proven, I do not think you have solid ground to criticize Dennis's choice of the ribbon, as you have multiple times. In this thread you are now implying it is a primarily a subjective choice rather than one of making an educated compromise, which strikes me as misguided.

Ultimately it's very simple. If distortion is of utmost importance to the listener, then the listener should buy another speaker. But to me and others it is obvious that directivity plays a more important role in what sounds better to most people's ears, and there is nothing inherently wrong with the choice of the ribbon in order to achieve some of the widest directivity available.

Some have said a couple more dB extension in horizontal directivitt doesn't matter, but I respectfully disagree.

Let's do a thought experiment. In some studies, in order to test the effects of sidewall reflections, researchers use an anechoic chamber and fake the 'walls' with surround speakers set to a delay that replicates a wall bounce.

Assuming you start with 'perfect' zero-distortion speakers, what do you think would have a more noticeable effect to the listener while listening to music?
a) increasing the distortion of the speakers to match the what is provided by the RAAL
b) Decreasing the SPL level of the 'side speakers' by ~3dB in the last couple of octaves (even while level matching total SPL).

Idk about you, but to me situation b seems far more audible, and I'd wager it that for most listeners, it would probably sound worse too(because most listeners seem to prefer louder sidewall reflections).

Whether or not I'm right, the point is to illustrate that a few dB and Hertz extra of wide directivity is not trivial.

So yes, distortion is a flaw with this speaker, but no, I'm not sure there was a better way of achieving similarly wide dispersion without an estoeric design and price.

P.S I'm also not sure there's any benefit to having wider vertical directivity unless you listen from up close. It is arguably a bad thing since both floor and ceiling reflections are known to be more detrimental than their sidewall counterparts. Unless you're a coaxial with perfect verticals, all wider vertical directivity seems to do is exacerbate audibility of lobing.
Thanks for chiming in. Obviously I agree with you. I would just emphasize that distortion in this speaker only becomes an issue at very high output levels. So it's not like there is an inherent problem under more common circumstances. Also, I do intend to experiment with a somewhat higher crossover point for the mid-tweet transition. The current 3400 Hz is above the factory suggestion, and it was chosen to maximize the contribution of the ribbon to the sound and dispersion, but it may be that bumping it up a bit will be a net gain.
 

thebabyparrot

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I still think if there's a brave soul willing to send one of these speakers around to the big main reviewers: Zeos, Joshua Valour, Bert's Reviews etc. - the word about this product would get out fast. The good news is- on AVSforum @Dennis Murphy mentioned that the BMR is returning in a different form sometime later this year.


I wonder when @amirm would get a chance to take a look at these? I live in Renton, which isn't too terribly far from him, so whenever I get these speakers next year, I'll probably try and let him work his magic on them.


I knew these speakers were something special when Audioholic's James Larson called them "some of the best measuring directivity loudspeakers we've ever had" whilst mentioning them in the same sentences as the Revel's is quite a compliment.
 

Ericglo

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I still think if there's a brave soul willing to send one of these speakers around to the big main reviewers: Zeos, Joshua Valour, Bert's Reviews etc. - the word about this product would get out fast. The good news is- on AVSforum @Dennis Murphy mentioned that the BMR is returning in a different form sometime later this year.

.


I guess those "main" reviewers on youtube have huge followings, so it might be a good marketing exercise. Outside of that, I would not really call any of the videos a good informative review from what I have seen.
 

richard12511

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I guess those "main" reviewers on youtube have huge followings, so it might be a good marketing exercise. Outside of that, I would not really call any of the videos a good informative review from what I have seen.
Given the praise they often give for loudspeakers that are objectively much more flawed, I have no doubt that they’d be singing the praises of this loudspeaker. I think it’s a good idea, if the goal is to market this loudspeaker.
 

thebabyparrot

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I guess those "main" reviewers on youtube have huge followings, so it might be a good marketing exercise. Outside of that, I would not really call any of the videos a good informative review from what I have seen.
Every company whose decided to go this route: Klipsch, Buchardt Audio, ZMF, and SVS- have benefited tremendously. No disrespect to the enthusiasts here, but we are in a echo chamber of an echo chamber of an echo chamber.

It's safe to say Dennis has an awesome design that deserves to be recognized. Don't underestimate the enthusiast Youtube Market.
 

SECA_alan

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Thank you, @hardisj for an epic investigation and review, the Philharmonic BMR is such a fascinating design. I first read about it on a US hifi forum several years ago and I have been prevaricating about it for several years. It is harder to build or buy some US kit from the UK - similar problem with Rythmik, sadly. @Dennis Murphy should be congratulated on this design, the choices he made seem to be very valid ones. That directivity is simply sensational!

In the end I got B stock Revel F208 for a great price from a dealer (sorry Dennis-Waveguide!), but my hope is the two designs would be more sonically alike in a real room than different.
 

Ericglo

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Given the praise they often give for loudspeakers that are objectively much more flawed, I have no doubt that they’d be singing the praises of this loudspeaker. I think it’s a good idea, if the goal is to market this loudspeaker.

I agree. The marketing exposure should be the main reason to have these youtubers take a look at this speaker.

Every company whose decided to go this route: Klipsch, Buchardt Audio, ZMF, and SVS- have benefited tremendously. No disrespect to the enthusiasts here, but we are in a echo chamber of an echo chamber of an echo chamber.

It's safe to say Dennis has an awesome design that deserves to be recognized. Don't underestimate the enthusiast Youtube Market.

You are correct it is kind of an echo chamber. But lets not pretend that these youtubers are "reviewers". I watched a couple of them and was left extremely underwhelmed. I HATE the word influencers, so I would categorize them as promoters.

And saying this I know there are exceptions. Erin is obviously doing a great job on his reviews.
 

GelbeMusik

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I would just emphasize that distortion in this speaker only becomes an issue at very high output levels.

If one thinks of 70dB to be very high of a level. See

https://croweaudio.blogspot.com/2020/06/horn-no-1155-for-raal-70-20xr-pure.html

mentioned here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...on-tweeter-full-measurement-comparison.14457/

( Regarding an alternative for the ribbon )

This one is $20/ea and has wide directivity:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/vifa/vifa-ne19vts-04
The distortion is a crapshoot though.

But nothing compares to a real ribbon!
 

Dennis Murphy

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Given the praise they often give for loudspeakers that are objectively much more flawed, I have no doubt that they’d be singing the praises of this loudspeaker. I think it’s a good idea, if the goal is to market this loudspeaker.
I kind of hate to see the BMR get associated with most of these guys. And frankly, I couldn't handle a big bulge in sales. For example, the shipment that's due in October consists of 35 pairs of BMR's and 15 pairs of the new mini. It's really a niche product designed for audio enthusiasts who frequent the main audio forums.
 

Icboschert

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I kind of hate to see the BMR get associated with most of these guys. And frankly, I couldn't handle a big bulge in sales. For example, the shipment that's due in October consists of 35 pairs of BMR's and 15 pairs of the new mini. It's really a niche product designed for audio enthusiasts who frequent the main audio forums.
Are the 35 pairs already accounted for? I might want to get in line if I can!
 
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