Phase alignment

[Jake 74]

I’m waiting for a splitter to connect a second JL Audio d108 sub to my Yamaha rn1000a and b&w 706s3’s will ypao adjust the phase and time alignment

 

[Mort]

Punctuation helps us help you.

Yes, it does.

 

[Jake 74]

Punctuation helps us help you.

Yes, it does.

Thanks for your input

 

[DonH56]

The RN1000A has only a single subwoofer output. Using a splitter to add a second sub means you will have to manually adjust the new subwoofer to align it with the other sub and the rest of the system. It will treat the two as a single subwoofer, which will not in general give optimal results. You will need to manually adjust the phase and level (volume) controls of the sub(s) so they are aligned, then the AVR can process them as a single sub.

 

[Trdat]

I’m waiting for a splitter to connect a second JL Audio d108 sub to my Yamaha rn1000a and b&w 706s3’s will ypao adjust the phase and time alignment

Time alignment can only be had when there is a seperate DAC and Amp to that frequency range, such a triamp system.

An AVR will generally only phase align. But, I can let the experts chime in about this.... As I am not 100% sure how the AVR works with its DAC's and Amp's.

I have 4 subs on my AVR and they are measured as one single unit phase aligned with my mains. I used REW to figure out delay and used Audiolense to do a final correction on top, my results are not bad, however I will never know how much better sounding it will be if I was to correct 4 subs individually.

I forget who, but it was either Griesenger or Geddes who suggests minuscule delays between subs to add low bass reverberation the extra delays between subs adds envelopment. This was my goal with my 4 sub system and I can still crank techno and the bass is clean and tight. Point is that aligning subs individually is the better approach however you might get decent results if you do things correctly.

 

[Heinrich]

I’m waiting for a splitter to connect a second JL Audio d108 sub to my Yamaha rn1000a and b&w 706s3’s will ypao adjust the phase and time alignment

You could align the subs to room modes ( and simple echoes) by input phase adjustment, or by placement. But it will always be to align to the room. Hence if signal based alignment is missing, you are left with positioning. But you‘ve at least that.

 

[DonH56]

Time alignment can only be had when there is a seperate DAC and Amp to that frequency range, such a triamp system.

An AVR will generally only phase align. But, I can let the experts chime in about this.... As I am not 100% sure how the AVR works with its DAC's and Amp's.

AVRs, at least the dozen or two I have owned, include a delay adjustment for time alignment. Phase alignment usually happens via the processor (room correction) program.

I have 4 subs on my AVR and they are measured as one single unit phase aligned with my mains. I used REW to figure out delay and used Audiolense to do a final correction on top, my results are not bad, however I will never know how much better sounding it will be if I was to correct 4 subs individually.

There are many proponents of aligning the subs so the AVR/AVP treats them as a group. Strong opinions on both sides, group vs. individual sub alignment. I've done both and can't honestly say I have noticed much difference but that is a very limited sample size (one).

I forget who, but it was either Griesenger or Geddes who suggests minuscule delays between subs to add low bass reverberation the extra delays between subs adds envelopment. This was my goal with my 4 sub system and I can still crank techno and the bass is clean and tight. Point is that aligning subs individually is the better approach however you might get decent results if you do things correctly.

In this case the AVR only has one subwoofer channel so will treat multiple subs as a single channel. Individual alignment must be done, using the controls on the subwoofers, an external unit like AntiMode or miniDSP, or both. Since the OP's subs have delay and phase controls, he can adjust the subs individually to align them to work together, then let the AVR handle the EQ as a group (looking like a single sub to the AVR). That will likely require REW or a similar analysis tool, though I do not know what sort of software JL provides (if any) for that task. That is how I handled my subs for many years before getting a processor with sufficient channels to handle all four individually.

 

[Heinrich]

In this case the AVR only has one subwoofer channel so will treat multiple subs as a single channel. Individual alignment must be done, using the controls on the subwoofers, an external unit like AntiMode …

Some aeons back in time and space we adjusted subs to the room by hand and mind. Set up the main speakers as desired for other reasons. Then place subsequently subs in addition one after the other while optimizing with each new one’s settings the in-room response further, not changeing the settings of the previous.

 

[DonH56]

Some aeons back in time and space we adjusted subs to the room by hand and mind. Set up the main speakers as desired for other reasons. Then place subsequently subs in addition one after the other while optimizing with each new one’s settings the in-room response further, not changeing the settings of the previous.

Yah, done that, usually poorly. Much easier and better results using the proper tools. Now that means a $100 UMIK-1 and free REW software; back when I started, it was about $10k worth of equipment and professional analysis software.

My usual simple technique was to play a tone at the crossover frequency and adjust the sub(s)' delay/phase for the loudest sound (preferably using an SPL meter) at the listening position. Then adjust amplitude (gain) of the sub(s) for level matching.

As my grandmother was fond of saying: "Those who talk about the good old days did not have to live through them."

 

[Trdat]

AVRs, at least the dozen or two I have owned, include a delay adjustment for time alignment. Phase alignment usually happens via the processor (room correction) program.

Okay so that is the difference, the delay adjustment is the time alignment and the phase is through room correction, got it.

There are many proponents of aligning the subs so the AVR/AVP treats them as a group. Strong opinions on both sides, group vs. individual sub alignment. I've done both and can't honestly say I have noticed much difference but that is a very limited sample size (one).

I would agree on that, I have opted out of aligning my 4 subs with something like minidsp, as I am very happy with results.

In this case the AVR only has one subwoofer channel so will treat multiple subs as a single channel. Individual alignment must be done, using the controls on the subwoofers, an external unit like AntiMode or miniDSP, or both. Since the OP's subs have delay and phase controls, he can adjust the subs individually to align them to work together, then let the AVR handle the EQ as a group (looking like a single sub to the AVR). That will likely require REW or a similar analysis tool, though I do not know what sort of software JL provides (if any) for that task. That is how I handled my subs for many years before getting a processor with sufficient channels to handle all four individually.

I think the key is to figure out the correct delay from REW taking proper measurements and entering that into the AVR and then letting the room correction perform Eq, this will probably give decent results in terms of sub integration. But in saying this, its not like the room corrections delay adjustments was horrible before I used REW.

 

[Jake 74]

AVRs, at least the dozen or two I have owned, include a delay adjustment for time alignment. Phase alignment usually happens via the processor (room correction) program.


There are many proponents of aligning the subs so the AVR/AVP treats them as a group. Strong opinions on both sides, group vs. individual sub alignment. I've done both and can't honestly say I have noticed much difference but that is a very limited sample size (one).


In this case the AVR only has one subwoofer channel so will treat multiple subs as a single channel. Individual alignment must be done, using the controls on the subwoofers, an external unit like AntiMode or miniDSP, or both. Since the OP's subs have delay and phase controls, he can adjust the subs individually to align them to work together, then let the AVR handle the EQ as a group (looking like a single sub to the AVR). That will likely require REW or a similar analysis tool, though I do not know what sort of software JL provides (if any) for that task. That is how I handled my subs for many years before getting a processor with sufficient channels to handle all four individually.

Jl does have a program I believe I just need to get a mic for TUN dsp. Thanks for everyone’s input

 

[dualazmak]

Time alignment can only be had when there is a seperate DAC and Amp to that frequency range, such a triamp system.

Basically and essentially, I agree with you since I have exactly implemented you point in my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup (ref. here for the details of the latest system setup).

Spoiler

We can apply, however, Quasi-(or Sham-)Relative-Time-Alignment using PC (or Mac) DSP solutions for even with single stereo-DAC and single amplifier driving multiple SP drivers in passive LC(R) network configuration, as I shared here in this schematic diagram.

 

[dualazmak]

I’m waiting for a splitter to connect a second JL Audio d108 sub to my Yamaha rn1000a and b&w 706s3’s will ypao adjust the phase and time alignment

Just for your possible reference and interest, visual "observation" of microphone-recorded tone-burst signal around the crossover (XO) Fq to be sung by subwoofer only, woofer only, and subwoofer and woofer together, would help you a lot for optimization of XO Fq, XO slopes, relative gains, time-alignment, phase matching, etc., like I have done in my multichannel audio project as shared in the posts under the below spoiler cover.

Spoiler

- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-1_ Precision pulse wave matching method: #493
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-2_ Energy peak matching method: #494
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507

 

[Jake 74]

Just for your possible reference and interest, visual "observation" of microphone-recorded tone-burst signal around the crossover (XO) Fq to be sung by subwoofer only, woofer only, and subwoofer and woofer together, would help you a lot for optimization of XO Fq, XO slopes, relative gains, time-alignment, phase matching, etc., like I have done in my multichannel audio project as shared in the posts under the below spoiler cover.

Spoiler

- Measurement of transient characteristics of Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 in sealed cabinet and Yamaha active sub-woofer YST-SW1000: #495, #497, #503, #507

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-1_ Precision pulse wave matching method: #493
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-2_ Energy peak matching method: #494
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507

Will do. Thanks and I will be acquiring a microphone soon to make measurements of my listening area