Performance of Amps in Active Speakers

[KozmoNaut]

A fact that should not be overlooked is that professional sound engineers consider many of the mentioned active monitors to be more than adequate for accurate monitoring when mixing and mastering music. They need to hear as much detail as possible, to properly balance the mix, and to identify any warts and blemishes.

 

[JJB70]

I am no critic of the SQ of active speakers but I do find it telling that people apply a much more pragmatic criteria to the amplifier performance of such speakers than to standalone amplifiers. Amplifiers are not DACs, and they do not actually need to get anywhere near the vanishingly low noise and distortion of DACs to achieve audible transparency.

 

[watchnerd]

I am no critic of the SQ of active speakers but I do find it telling that people apply a much more pragmatic criteria to the amplifier performance of such speakers than to standalone amplifiers. Amplifiers are not DACs, and they do not actually need to get anywhere near the vanishingly low noise and distortion of DACs to achieve audible transparency.

A fact that should not be overlooked is that professional sound engineers consider many of the mentioned active monitors to be more than adequate for accurate monitoring when mixing and mastering music. They need to hear as much detail as possible, to properly balance the mix, and to identify any warts and blemishes.

Not to mention the crappy-by-modern-digital-standards gear used the past to make classic recordings.

15 IPS tape has distortion specs in the 1% range, SNR worse than -70 dB.....yet how many recordings from the 1960s and 1970s are still considered to be really good recordings, despite this?

 

[KSTR]

Now if SINAD of 61 db is good enough for an active studio monitor, why do some think the Crown XLS 1502 is junk at 76 db. Or, why are folks around here celebrating when Bruno's latest pushes a few more db past 100 SINAD?

Really, how much is enough?

A condensed 1kHz SINAD number doesn't tell much of a story own its own, that's the point. We may only safely assume that
- an amp having 100dB++ is unlikely to show other imperfections going on at audible levels,
- and an amp with less than, say, 40dB is likely to sound bad just because of the other imperfections are so gross as well that the amp is basically broken. OTOH you can have a well designed tube amp with only 40dB of (purely distortion dominanted) SINAD that still sounds very accecptable if not excellent. OK, let's lower that to 20dB and then probably even nice and stable 10% H2 will sound bad with most any source material other than a soloed track of electric bass guitar ;-)

==> Do not extrapolate from simple 1kHz SINAD number to perceived sound quality unless dealing with extremes.

 

[KSTR]

Back to internal amps of active speakers, we have to consider that the designer hopefully has full control over the implementation and this makes it possible to tailor down the amp requirements to be "good enough" on a reliable basis, unlike to a standalone full-range amp that has to cope with unknown load conditions and fault scenarios.

 

[GrimSurfer]

So we need to keep striving for infinitely low distortion and SNR?

Surely there is a point where we reach diminishing returns and 'problem solved'.

After -120 dB, anything else is meaningless because the problem of noise, to human hearing, is unquestionably solved.

 

[GrimSurfer]

A condensed 1kHz SINAD number doesn't tell much of a story own its own, that's the point. We may only safely assume that
- an amp having 100dB++ is unlikely to show other imperfections going on at audible levels,
- and an amp with less than, say, 40dB is likely to sound bad just because of the other imperfections are so gross as well that the amp is basically broken.

Agree.

 

[q3cpma]

Isn't a pair of kh310 ~$4500, and kh 420 about $10k?
And Genelec 8351b is ~$8k, 8361 is ~$10k?

Or, did I misread the prices glancing at Sweetwater postings?

On Thomann, a pair of KH310 is at 2900€ (without taxes), which makes $3250. Following this trend, the KH420 is $6800, the 8260A is $6260, the 1032C is $3700 and the 1237A (which is overpriced compared its Neumann competitor) is $8650.
ATC's SMC50ASL is $15.500 on Sweetwater, which is another world for me.

 

[mkawa]

Back to internal amps of active speakers, we have to consider that the designer hopefully has full control over the implementation and this makes it possible to tailor down the amp requirements to be "good enough" on a reliable basis, unlike to a standalone full-range amp that has to cope with unknown load conditions and fault scenarios.

i think that the better way to put this is that one hopes that the electronics in an active have been co-designed with the physical speaker design. in fact, the better studio monitors _definitely_ have this design ethos; it's always been odd to me how so-called audiophiles shy away from common/very nearfield monitors like the rokit rkr series, the standard yamahas, etc. it's similar to how head-fi types don't think much of the 7506 that was probably used during mixing of their favorite tunes..

 

[GrimSurfer]

it's similar to how head-fi types don't think much of the 7506 that was probably used during mixing of their favorite tunes..

Really? Were those available during the classic and prog rock era?

 

[mkawa]

introduced in '91. so late floyd, rush, spiritualized.. yah.

not sure what the most popular monitoring headphone was before that. wasn't it what are now the the lower end AKG k2xx (was k5x(x?))

 

[GrimSurfer]

introduced in '91. so late floyd, rush, spiritualized.. yah.

not sure what the most popular monitoring headphone was before that. wasn't it what are now the the lower end AKG k2xx (was k5x(x?))

So the newer stuff then?

 

[Vintage57]

On Thomann, a pair of KH310 is at 2900€ (without taxes), which makes $3250. Following this trend, the KH420 is $6800, the 8260A is $6260, the 1032C is $3700 and the 1237A (which is overpriced compared its Neumann competitor) is $8650.
ATC's SMC50ASL is $15.500 on Sweetwater, which is another world for me.

FWIW, In my HT I have SCM50ASL‘s in LCR config with SCM20ASL rears and 2 15”HSU subs. It’s a grest HT system. For comparison purpose I placed 2 of the 50’s beside the KH 420 stacked on KH 805 subs in the stereo room and can honestly say that the ATC’ were no match.

The Neumann‘s had more dynamic range, bigger soundstage, with some recordings giving the impression of music outside the speakeras well as a focused centre image. The Neumann‘s went so much deeper in the bass and yet were as clear in the mids and highs as the ATC’s.

If you’re able to listen to the bigger Neumann‘s I highly recommend it. YMMV.

 

[renaudrenaud]

I have a pair of Focal monitor using class AB amps, one for the bass and one for tweeter, it means 4 amps for one pair of speakers. I do not know anything else on these amps... Just I do not like to much medium-highs for these speakers, but I recognized their quality for home studio (but I don't like to listen to music with it).

 

[Ron Texas]

After reading many responses I have reached some conclusions:

Chip amps used in the vast majority of active speakers don't measure well.
Even when used with passive speakers pro audio amplifiers with mediocre measurements sound great. This is because the distortion produced by speakers is at least an order of magnitude more than many of the pro audio amplifiers. It's nice to have a Benchmark amp, but not necessary.
Active monitors sound good both because extreme low distortion amplification is not necessary and also because DSP active crossovers allow for steeper slopes and EQ. It's not because of some magic synergy from "matching" the amp to the driver.

 

[watchnerd]

After reading many responses I have reached some conclusions:

Chip amps used in the vast majority of active speakers don't measure well.
Even when used with passive speakers pro audio amplifiers with mediocre measurements sound great. This is because the distortion produced by speakers is at least an order of magnitude more than many of the pro audio amplifiers. It's nice to have a Benchmark amp, but not necessary.
Active monitors sound good both because extreme low distortion amplification is not necessary and also because DSP active crossovers allow for steeper slopes and EQ. It's not because of some magic synergy from "matching" the amp to the driver.

Best of both worlds is probably "externally active" with SOTA amps + DSP crossovers and corrections.

Except....

Almost nobody seems to do the "external" + "corrections" part.

The JBL M2 is architected that way. I believe the i-variants of the JBL 7-series are, too.

I'm sure there are more, but they seem few and far between.

 

[Cortes]

@Ron Texas
I think you are right. Probably, similar words can be said about the dac section.

 

[Ron Texas]

Best of both worlds is probably "externally active" with SOTA amps + DSP crossovers and corrections.

Except....

Almost nobody seems to do the "external" + "corrections" part.

The JBL M2 is architected that way. I believe the i-variants of the JBL 7-series are, too.

I'm sure there are more, but they seem few and far between.

There are two members that I know of who are rolling their own active systems this way. One is @dallasjustice with M2's, the other is @mitchco using cinema series JBL's. Both have multiple sub's and are using Audiolens for crossovers and integration.

 

[dc655321]

There are two members that I know of who are rolling their own active systems this way. One is @dallasjustice with M2's, the other is @mitchco using cinema series JBL's. Both have multiple sub's and are using Audiolens for crossovers and integration.

And @Cosmik.

 

[watchnerd]

There are two members that I know of who are rolling their own active systems this way. One is @dallasjustice with M2's, the other is @mitchco using cinema series JBL's. Both have multiple sub's and are using Audiolens for crossovers and integration.

DIY seems to be reasonably common.

But out-of-the-box "externally active" seems rare.

Devialet made such an offering with Atohm, but I don't know if it's even made / sold any longer.