• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Perceptual Effects of Room Reflections

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,866
Location
NYC
I have looked a bit into the research on this, and several studies indicate that reflections from behind and above the listener can be perceived positively as well.
Yes, but they are not always perceived positively since they generally "reflect" the listening room's characteristics and not those of the performance.
I love jazz and listen to performances in every room size, from concert halls to small places that are hardly larger than my living room. The main difference? Amplification and loudspeakers kill the good sound, Adding direct sound by speakers aimed towards the audience creates a very unpleasant sound for me. Concerts without amplification sound so much nicer.
And stuffing a 20 piece big band into a 100 sqm does not sound as nice as listening to the same big band in a good concert hall with wooden floor panels marvelously reflecting those trumpet sections.
Bottom line: Aim at good reproduction of music that would “fit” into your listening room and do not try the impossible.
Good arguments for multichannel reproduction as more suitable than 2-channel.:)
 
Last edited:

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,939
Location
Oslo, Norway
Good arguments for multichannel reproduction as more suitable than 2-channel.:)

On that note, I heard for the first time today a demonstration of auro 3D, with some amazing classical recordings from 2L. Oh. My. God. This is the first time ever, in my whole life, that I hear reproduced music rendered in a way that actually creates a believable illusion of real acoustic music. I’ve now very firmly become a multichannel/immersive audio convert. I now know that I won’t die a happy man unless I get an auro 3D setup in my home first.
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,866
Location
NYC
On that note, I heard for the first time today a demonstration of auro 3D, with some amazing classical recordings from 2L. Oh. My. God. This is the first time ever, in my whole life, that I hear reproduced music rendered in a way that actually creates a believable illusion of real acoustic music. I’ve now very firmly become a multichannel/immersive audio convert. I now know that I won’t die a happy man unless I get an auro 3D setup in my home first.
I am happy to hear that! The 2L stuff is impressive but the perspective is a bit too immersive for me.
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,939
Location
Oslo, Norway
I am happy to hear that! The 2L stuff is impressive but the perspective is a bit too immersive for me.

I can see what you mean. We heard several tracks from 2L. One of them was a jazz recording where the drums were way in the back... felt a bit unnatural. But there was also a more straight classical track (couldn’t catch the composer) with a front soundstage, augmented by ambience etc from the other channels. This was the track that convinced me that m.ch. for music is much more than a gimmick. I was floored.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,197
Likes
16,921
Location
Central Fl
I can see what you mean. We heard several tracks from 2L. One of them was a jazz recording where the drums were way in the back... felt a bit unnatural.

Some producers are doing the "stage" mix thing where the listener is placed on the stage as if he was part of the band. Coming from long term stereo listening at first it can sound very unnatural. After listening for a bit and becoming accustomed to the prospective many (including myself) come to enjoy it. Mark Waldrep's AIX BluRays usually include both mixes for your choosing
One mans ceiling is another mans floor here. ;)
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,939
Location
Oslo, Norway
Some producers are doing the "stage" mix thing where the listener is placed on the stage as if he was part of the band. Coming from long term stereo listening at first it can sound very unnatural. After listening for a bit and becoming accustomed to the prospective many (including myself) come to enjoy it. Mark Waldrep's AIX BluRays usually include both mixes for your choosing
One mans ceiling is another mans floor here. ;)

That's a valuable tip! Yes, I might have become sensitized to the stereo thing, I guess. Anyway I have no doubt that I will need to seek out a m.ch. rig. (but this is going OT in this thread, I think)
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,197
Likes
16,921
Location
Central Fl
That's a valuable tip! Yes, I might have become sensitized to the stereo thing, I guess. Anyway I have no doubt that I will need to seek out a m.ch. rig. (but this is going OT in this thread, I think)
70+ years of stereo's "open window to the performance" has conditioned us to think of it as the only "right" way, including the idea that the surrounds should only be used for ambiance to give you 360 a sitting in the concert-hall perspective. But becoming part of the performance with an on-stage perspective can present a very real, live immersive experience also but will require a mental adjustment over time. YMMV
Yes, too far OT ;)
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,725
Likes
2,910
Location
Finland
Multichannel room must be very well damped, and then we must live with what the mixer has done. I believe there is wide variety of "images", the art has not stagnated to one ideal. Classical concert halls also sound all different, so this is a familiar thing... Pop/rock is always artificial, jazz&folk comes in between. I sometimes listen to live stereo broadcast with Dolby Prologic II. Our national TV sends also some concerts in DD 5.1 I am not entusiastic enough to pay for multichannel music, yet...

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/....com&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=brandbar
 
Last edited:

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,485
Likes
4,111
Location
Pacific Northwest
...But becoming part of the performance with an on-stage perspective can present a very real, live immersive experience also but will require a mental adjustment over time. ...
To make the on-stage experience more realistic, they need to close-mic it too. The sound of acoustic musical instruments changes significantly with listener distance. If you're playing the violin (or other instrument), you hear quite a bit more "zing" in the timbre. Some of those high frequency harmonics decay quickly with distance, so it sounds different sitting on stage next to the musician, different still in the 1st row seats, and then further away.
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,866
Location
NYC
70+ years of stereo's "open window to the performance" has conditioned us to think of it as the only "right" way, including the idea that the surrounds should only be used for ambiance to give you 360 a sitting in the concert-hall perspective. But becoming part of the performance with an on-stage perspective can present a very real, live immersive experience also but will require a mental adjustment over time. YMMV
YMMV. There are a very few such on-stage perspective recordings that I enjoy despite almost two decades of multichannel listening. Admittedly, I tolerate them better than I used to but I still (almost always) prefer a more natural perspective because that is the one I have experienced at live events. Recently, I have attended some "immersive events," so perhaps I'll change.
Yes, too far OT ;)
Indeed.
 

audimus

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
Messages
458
Likes
462
On most live stages (except those specifically and well-designed with floor monitors for a fixed ensemble), the lack of balance of sound between instruments one might hear in different sections is not something you would want to necessarily reproduce for the listener at home. So with proper balancing, at best, it would be a virtual image of being surrounded not the reality of what one might actually hear on stage.

Close miking is what you need to get the full timbre out, not take the audience into the ensemble. But too much of close miking even with narrow directional ones can have an undesirable outcome of capturing sound you don’t necessarily want to hear - feet shuffling, dropped bows or reeds, heavy breathing, fret squeaks, etc.

It is a study of compromises not to be too romanticized.
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,485
Likes
4,111
Location
Pacific Northwest
... I still (almost always) prefer a more natural perspective because that is the one I have experienced at live events ...
... On most live stages (except those specifically and well-designed with floor monitors for a fixed ensemble), the lack of balance of sound between instruments one might hear in different sections is not something you would want to necessarily reproduce for the listener at home. ...
Similarly, musicians frequently select an instrument that doesn't necessarily sound best to them while playing, a little too edgy or bright, knowing it projects the sound they want for the audience or the recording.
 

JoachimStrobel

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
519
Likes
304
Location
Germany
On most live stages (except those specifically and well-designed with floor monitors for a fixed ensemble), the lack of balance of sound between instruments one might hear in different sections is not something you would want to necessarily reproduce for the listener at home. So with proper balancing, at best, it would be a virtual image of being surrounded not the reality of what one might actually hear on stage.

Close miking is what you need to get the full timbre out, not take the audience into the ensemble. But too much of close miking even with narrow directional ones can have an undesirable outcome of capturing sound you don’t necessarily want to hear - feet shuffling, dropped bows or reeds, heavy breathing, fret squeaks, etc.

It is a study of compromises not to be too romanticized.

I have seen everything: Mikes everywhere, even trying to squeeze a Big Band through two loudspeaker or a Steinway through one, but also no mikes at all.
As an observer I guess that this reflects the difference in opinion between professionals.
And I, as a listener, can only say, that I do not like loudspeaker (towards the audience) in concerts. Exceptions are of course electrical instruments, in my musical world that could be a guitar or keyboards.

I understand the idea of balancing sound-stages and intentions are good. But a loudspeaker will never radiate the sound of an acoustic instrument in a proper way. And it is an unpleasant experience to see a trumpet in one place and its sound coming out in a different place, and then both sound fields fight their way to my ears. Same as seeing a grand piano miked up and fed through speakers. This is a bit similar to the differences between home made burgers and McDonald’s burger.
 

Hipper

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
753
Likes
625
Location
Herts., England
That's a valuable tip! Yes, I might have become sensitized to the stereo thing, I guess. Anyway I have no doubt that I will need to seek out a m.ch. rig. (but this is going OT in this thread, I think)

Well, multi channel must still have reflections. How do we want them to behave?
 

audimus

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
Messages
458
Likes
462
I have seen everything: Mikes everywhere, even trying to squeeze a Big Band through two loudspeaker or a Steinway through one, but also no mikes at all.
As an observer I guess that this reflects the difference in opinion between professionals.
And I, as a listener, can only say, that I do not like loudspeaker (towards the audience) in concerts. Exceptions are of course electrical instruments, in my musical world that could be a guitar or keyboards.

I understand the idea of balancing sound-stages and intentions are good. But a loudspeaker will never radiate the sound of an acoustic instrument in a proper way. And it is an unpleasant experience to see a trumpet in one place and its sound coming out in a different place, and then both sound fields fight their way to my ears. Same as seeing a grand piano miked up and fed through speakers. This is a bit similar to the differences between home made burgers and McDonald’s burger.

I hear ya on the audio setup of live shows.

There seems to be two different things mixed up here though.

One, whether the recording should sound like being in the midst of the performers or as being in the audience. The latter is independent of whether a particular audio setup for the live audience is good or bad. They are conceptually different goals.

The former, as I have pointed out, isn’t a good conceptual goal because the sound on live stage is (except in some very rare circumstances with good floor monitors, good audio engineering, etc) not an ideal experience to duplicate for the home listener. It is almost always unbalanced. So, the goal itself has problems. Unless, as I mentioned you create an imagined virtual balanced image of being in the midst. This would be not be much different from the post-processing surround modes as far as relation to reality is concerned. Conceptually, in this case being very close to reality is bad.

The second is that if you were to reproduce the sound as being in the audience, then you are not recording what comes out of the loudspeakers but mixing from the various mics from the stage or in front of it. So, the fact that some audio set up somewhere is badly done isn’t a knock against it. In any competent stage setup (not including garage band setups or amateur concerts), the sound is almost never localized to any loudspeaker. Typically, there are multiple speakers and the goal of on the floor audio engineer is to make sure that the audience hears it as coming from stage but amplified to make it heard which includes balancing against natural sounds that come out of instruments. Clearly, it is difficult to get it perfect depending on the size of the audience and acoustics but the goal in this case as well as the recording from that perspective are both aligned to the same goal - to project a clearly audible stage in front.

It is actually easier in the recording to achieve that goal with sufficient mics and tracks than a live show, the trade-off being that it is difficult to reproduce the ambience and often tonality or timbre of the live show in a recording. A multi-channel recording in this case would have some advantages over stereo for that deficiency. But being in the midst of the musicians isn’t a solution to this. They are conceptually different.
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,939
Location
Oslo, Norway
I hear ya on the audio setup of live shows.

There seems to be two different things mixed up here though.

One, whether the recording should sound like being in the midst of the performers or as being in the audience. The latter is independent of whether a particular audio setup for the live audience is good or bad. They are conceptually different goals.

The former, as I have pointed out, isn’t a good conceptual goal because the sound on live stage is (except in some very rare circumstances with good floor monitors, good audio engineering, etc) not an ideal experience to duplicate for the home listener. It is almost always unbalanced. So, the goal itself has problems. Unless, as I mentioned you create an imagined virtual balanced image of being in the midst. This would be not be much different from the post-processing surround modes as far as relation to reality is concerned. Conceptually, in this case being very close to reality is bad.

The second is that if you were to reproduce the sound as being in the audience, then you are not recording what comes out of the loudspeakers but mixing from the various mics from the stage or in front of it. So, the fact that some audio set up somewhere is badly done isn’t a knock against it. In any competent stage setup (not including garage band setups or amateur concerts), the sound is almost never localized to any loudspeaker. Typically, there are multiple speakers and the goal of on the floor audio engineer is to make sure that the audience hears it as coming from stage but amplified to make it heard which includes balancing against natural sounds that come out of instruments. Clearly, it is difficult to get it perfect depending on the size of the audience and acoustics but the goal in this case as well as the recording from that perspective are both aligned to the same goal - to project a clearly audible stage in front.

It is actually easier in the recording to achieve that goal with sufficient mics and tracks than a live show, the trade-off being that it is difficult to reproduce the ambience and often tonality or timbre of the live show in a recording. A multi-channel recording in this case would have some advantages over stereo for that deficiency. But being in the midst of the musicians isn’t a solution to this. They are conceptually different.

But you're talking about two different things here. @JoachimStrobel spoke about reproducing actual acoustic instruments and music. Then there's a genuine debate about how to record and reproduce it - which position in the hall, at the stage, close-micing or not, etc. You're talking here about live music over PA, if I understand you correctly. That's a whole different can of worms. As far as I'm concerned talk of reproducing PA concerts has nothing to do with high fidelity at all. What sense is there in trying to reproduce what is essentially already a reproduction? With electronic music, the original "event" is the studio-mixed record. It has no real-life correlate. With acoustic music, the original auditory event we may try to reproduce is the actual performance - and one may discuss what may be the best way of reproducing this event in our listening setups.
 

Ethan Winer

Active Member
Industry Insider
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
142
Likes
181
Location
New Milford, CT, USA
I see the conversation has shifted toward why our rooms sound different from a concert hall. You can get close to a concert hall with a good surround mix that has all the distant ambience embedded in the track. Of course, then you need a room with enough treatment to kill your own room's reflections, letting the embedded ambience come through. Much more here:

Why Doesn’t My Stereo Sound Like a Live Concert?
 

audimus

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
Messages
458
Likes
462
But you're talking about two different things here. @JoachimStrobel spoke about reproducing actual acoustic instruments and music. Then there's a genuine debate about how to record and reproduce it - which position in the hall, at the stage, close-micing or not, etc. You're talking here about live music over PA, if I understand you correctly. That's a whole different can of worms. As far as I'm concerned talk of reproducing PA concerts has nothing to do with high fidelity at all. What sense is there in trying to reproduce what is essentially already a reproduction? With electronic music, the original "event" is the studio-mixed record. It has no real-life correlate. With acoustic music, the original auditory event we may try to reproduce is the actual performance - and one may discuss what may be the best way of reproducing this event in our listening setups.

I was actually making the same distinction but you are further confusing the issue by misunderstanding the reference to PA. It is useful to think of the audio system for recording and for amplifying the sound inside the theater as two separate but parallel systems even if they use the same mixer and mics. Also, let us not further confuse the use of amps and speakers required to get any sound out of an instrument like an electric guitar or the keyboards from the PA system to amplify the stage for the audience at a distance. You may mic the former to feed to the PA system but typically never mic the latter if you can help it, partly to avoid feedback if you are using the same system for recording and room PA (so there is no recording of a recording as you put it).

Think of those required electronics for some instruments as part of the instrument itself. Keeping these conceptual differences is key to understanding how audio engineering works for live performance or recording.

Talk of the PA system here is a red herring. Hypothetically, think of a live performance without ANY amplified audio inside the room that is good enough for an audience (other than any amps needed for electronic instruments which have no sound otherwise). Now, let us think of how to record it so it can be heard at home.

Basically, it boils down to how to mic it and how to mix it.

There are two different issues - how to capture the quality of the sound and ambience and how to represent the stage in terms of locating the listener relative to the stage. These are two separate issues. These have nothing to do with whether there was a PA system (for stage amplification different from instrument required transducers) in the location or not. This must be clearly understood before proceeding further.

Any mic positioning for recording is at best an approximation to the live performance. But you are not going to get a recording without mics. So, a whole part of audio engineering is to determine the position of the mics so that it captures the sound quality of various instruments and/or vocals. Think of this as just raw data before mixing. You can also mic to capture the ambience to input into the mix. So far, it has nothing to do with how many channels in recording output. These are all independent cables coming into the mixer from various positions and have no relation to the speaker channels at home yet. As I have mentioned, there are limitations to capturing the timbre and ambience of a performance perfectly but that is a given. These have nothing to do with if there was a PA system in the theater or not.

Now, once you have the raw feeds coming in, there is the question of how to mix it for the final output into a recording whether stereo, or multi-channel. But regardless of the latter, there was a discussion earlier of whether the position of the listener being represented in the recording is as being located in the audience or in the midst of the performers. This should not be confused with the other issue of quality of sound capture. You can use the exact same mic positioning and their raw feeds that gives the best quality you can get to mix it for either of those listener positions. You can do it in stereo or multi-channel for either.

My first point was that mixing the output from the perspective of a listener in the middle of the performance has no basis in reality of a listener being in the middle of a stage in a live performance. The latter in live performance is not good because of lack of balance between instruments on stage (with some exceptions as I have mentioned). So, you can create a virtual world from the raw feeds coming in and mix it as if the sounds were coming from all around you rather than in front of you. This is what some of the multi-channel SACDs do when they remix from original independent tracks even of a live performance. The goal here is never one of capturing the actual performance in terms of positioning even for a live performance for reasons mentioned above. Conceptually, they are not very different from some of the post-processing surround modes that try to approximate it from stere recording outputs.

Second, there is a misunderstanding that recording from an audience location perspective is to be done by recording what comes out of the PA system. In general, this is not true (with some exceptions for ambience or in budget/amateur gigs). It isn’t. It is created by mixing the same incoming mic feeds that are fed to the PA system if one exists. In budget/amateur settings, the two mixes might be the same but in most professional settings, it isn’t. The PA system isn’t typically just 2 speakers. The PA mixing goal here is to amplify the sound so that ideally it is as if the stage is playing louder to be heard in the audience NOT that the saxophone is moved to the left speaker. This is achieved via a combination of strategically placed speakers and mixing feeds in right proportions between them.

The mixing for recorded output from the audience position is conceptually different although it has the same goal as the PA system - to make the stage be heard as a stage in front of you. Just to be clear again, this is typically not done by mics in front of the PA system to capture what the audience is hearing except in budget/amateur productions.

If both are done correctly and professionally, the image of the stage projected with PA amplification in the performance is the same as the stage projected by the recording at home for a listener at the center of the audience (or wherever the mixing engineer’s reference point is), in reality a decent approximation. So from that perspective, it is capturing the live event as heard in the audience (but not by placing mics in front of the PA system, I keep repeating this because this seems to be misunderstood).

Multi-channel output capability can enhance either of the listening position reference points. In terms of the virtual world of being on stage to listen, it is almost a necessity. In terms of the reference point of being in the audience, it can be used to enhance ambience and the “live nature” in terms of audience presence if that is required.
 
Last edited:

North_Sky

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 31, 2019
Messages
2,741
Likes
1,554
Location
Kha Nada
Using a quality Auto/Manual Room EQ and Acoustic Calibration System like say...from Trinnov, ARC, Dirac Live, JBL Synthesis, ... the perceptual effects of room reflections take the back seat (secondary level of importance for true audiophiles). IMHO

* For audio purists it won't fly. For audiophiles there's no better substitute...IMO.
Am I wrong in that opinion, Ethan?
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,658
Likes
240,920
Location
Seattle Area
Using a quality Auto/Manual Room EQ and Acoustic Calibration System like say...from Trinnov, ARC, Dirac Live, JBL Synthesis, ... the perceptual effects of room reflections take the back seat (secondary level of importance for true audiophiles). IMHO
No EQ system can do anything about sound reflecting from walls Bob. One thing comes out of speaker and splits around the room. You can change what you want upstream but the same thing will still happen. EQ system can improve/change the overall tonality but not the fact that reflections exist in the room.

In bass frequencies the situation is different and there, EQ systems do indeed make good improvements. But above a few hundred hertz, the situation becomes quite complex.
 
Top Bottom