People who went down the ultra high sinad gear route what have you found?

[kemmler3D]

Do you have measurements of the sensitivity? Some speakers have an actual sensitivity several dB below their reported values.

OP posted some screenshots that look like it measures right around 93 at least from 100hz up.

 

[Koeitje]

OP posted some screenshots that look like it measures right around 93 at least from 100hz up.

I see now, got some horn tweeters by the looks of it. So I doubt his current amplifier is actually running out of juice.

 

[Rainier939]

Do you have measurements of the sensitivity? Some speakers have an actual sensitivity several dB below their reported values.

nearfield+farfield measurement and impedance plot from the DATS

note: peak at 270 hz from overlap in summing in REW

 

[terryforsythe]

Your link doesn't include vat. Mine do so that's 21% more sadly.

Bummer.

They put one supply is that is meant to drive only one module and drive 2 with it.

With an 8 ohm load the output power is 260W/channel, regardless of whether you use two power supplies (one for each channel) or one power supply for both channels.

With a 4 ohm load, though, adding a second power supply boosts the output from 300W/channel to 525 W/channel.

My speakers originally were specified as 6 ohms, so I ordered the Stereo version of the Nilai. After I removed the passive crossovers and measured the woofers, though, they are 4.15 ohms. Recently I got a wild hair up my rear end and I added a second power supply to my Nilai. I don't hear any difference whatsoever since I never listen to music loud enough to push the limits of the amplifier, but I have more than enough power on tap should I ever need it for a future project - I tend to keep my amplifiers a long time; my last amplifier I had for 20+ years.

The amplifier does run warmer with two power supplies when I keep my cabinet door closed. I ordered two low noise Noctua fans to add to the cabinet to run when the door is closed. Their noise level is 8.6 dB(A), which will be inaudible, especially when the cabinet door is closed. When the cabinet door is open they are not needed. If I am able to hear them with the cabinet door open (I doubt it), I may hook up a switch to only turn them on when the door is closed and the stereo is turned on.

 

[Koeitje]

nearfield+farfield measurement and impedance plot from the DATS

Do you have THD measurements of your speaker? Maybe its not the amplifier that is the issue.

 

[Rainier939]

Do you have THD measurements of your speaker? Maybe its not the amplifier that is the issue.

first 2,83v/1m
second 2,83v/0,125m near woofer

 

[Rainier939]

I see now, got some horn tweeters by the looks of it. So I doubt his current amplifier is actually running out of juice.

It shouldn't but it start sounding like when playing over 95dB inroom. The transient peaks feel off. But that might be the drivers running to hard.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'm looking into some high power amps, 200+ watt into 8 ohm, for a reasonable price you get to the hypex, purifi, benchmark and to a degree icepower kind of amps. But I hear mixed results. One person thinks it's the end all be all and the other find that it shows to much and loses the love for the music they once held so dear.

I personally listen to alot of EDM and other not so recorded/mixed music. I have some "audiophile" songs I like and enjoy from time to time but mostly it's party music.

That's the thing: these are too close to being the "perfect" amplifier, as in they're close enough to the "wire with gain" for already being "audibly invisible", if you excuse the horrible pun.

There are people who don't like that. Compared to their older beloved, less perfect gear, they hear too much. Recent excellent amps reveal every little bit the recording has to offer, including the unpleasant stuff. With good enough speakers you can easily determine and judge the quality of the musical material. What sounds crap, will sound crap, there's nothing to mask it anymore.

In the end, it's a matter of personal preference and especially what you're used to, that determines the highly subjective level of listening enjoyment. Overall it's funny and very telling that these people essentially call a piece of gear "too good", "too revealing" and "too transparent". From a technical standpoint, an amplifier should be as neutral and "invisble", read: as perfect as possible. Any colouration or sound characteristic to taste should be added at source/preamp level, so that it always stays optional and adjustable. You lose that option and adaptability (say, to a new room and/or speakers) if you get a comparably technically imperfect amp that happens to suit your taste.

 

[GXAlan]

The ultra high SINAD game is the audio equivalent of clickbait- don't fall for it.

You won’t believe what experts have to say about that! </sarcasm>

Always trust your ears, but don’t trust your eyes.

My thoughts.

We all start with a love of music. As we enjoy the music, we experience something unattainable. A better setup, etc. This could be going to someone’s home, going to an audio salon, or hearing a live concert, or going to a well calibrated cinema.

Now we start our path to upgrades. This is our hobby, right? We read reviews, research products and also have a mix of affordable and unaffordable gear.

With each incremental upgrade, we get a dopamine hit, we get a bit of sighted bias, etc.

Now we start to learn the science. It’s exciting because you no longer need to rely on subjective reviews or traveling to stores or even in home trials. Better yet, in the grand scheme of things getting high SINAD gear isn’t expensive.

There is a branching point now, with three options. Some people migrate between paths.

1) Audio Nirvana
Armed with your knowledge of science, you pick up a great AVR with some sort of room correction, reasonable DAC and amplifier performance, along with passive speakers that are neutral and look attractive. Using REW, you verify speaker positions, do some tweaking and you are done. You have reached your end game. You are happy.

2) Gear Acquisition Syndrome
Armed with your knowledge of science, you seek the very best. It’s your hobby after all, so you start to go down the route of DACs with increasingly higher SINAD and voltage and amplifiers with decreasing gain and increasingly higher SINAD. Never mind that you have gone from the simplicity of a remote and full HDMI CEC integration for movies, music and anything you want, but you now have dedicated steamers, DACs, preamps and amplifiers.

Of course, your enjoyment has issues like needing to power each individual component since 12V triggers may not readily be available, and in the focus on SINAD, it is easy to forget the focus on ergonomics and usability. Think about how many people have complained about the IR remote on a Topping DAC. Think about how many people still bought a Topping DAC in the last 5 years…

3) Enlightenment
The person in audio nirvana may still have the belief that this is the very best setup for their budget. He or she may not have gear acquisition syndrome, but there will still be curiosity of other gear.

Enlightenment comes when you come back to enjoying music and movies. You hear your favorite song on the radio while driving or someone in the park playing it with a portable speaker.

You hear a 22 db SINAD 300b SET and enjoy the music or pick up an active studio monitor and enjoy the heck out of it, know that it has a simple chip amp with a lot of DSP.

You realize that gear is great but it’s the content that brings joy.

At this point, you stop caring about the SINAD. You get the biggest and best speakers you can and are satisfied with what you already own, knowing that chasing higher performance is pointless since it no longer affects your enjoyment of the music and the gear.

 

[Waxx]

The upper treble is way to hot, it should go down a bit at least between 7kHz and 14kHz, resonances higher than that are not that bad (but still better without). But a compression driver always need eq, often for this kind of problems. You can do that in a passive crossover, but that is hard to do right. Better use dsp with this to tame the treble from 7Khz.

A good amp will make it sound better, but won't fix problems with the speakers itself. Here you have to eq to solve it, not get a better amp.

 

[Rainier939]

The upper treble is way to hot, it should go down a bit at least between 7kHz and 14kHz, resonances higher than that are not that bad (but still better without). But a compression driver always need eq, often for this kind of problems. You can do that in a passive crossover, but that is hard to do right. Better use dsp with this to tame the treble from 7Khz.

A good amp will make it sound better, but won't fix problems with the speakers itself. Here you have to eq to solve it, not get a better amp.

She is a bit hot on top but tbh it doesn;t bother me. In room it rolls of nicely and it sound pretty neutral to me. More neutral then my precious build which had directivity isseus that caused sibilance problem. Is it the end all be all design no. But for €650 total budget it will shit on anything ready made from a store at any volume level near 95dB. Eq could be something added in the future.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Here's what I did.

I tried a DAC with a sinad of 88, which was definitely a better measurement than the two others I had in integrated amps. I liked it immediately.

I tried an amp that cost me $80 US (Fosi V3) with a sinad of 88. Later added a 48v power supply. At first, I liked it, but compared to my other amps (a/b and vintage a), something missing. I wanted something that did everything they all did, they all had positives and negatives.

After a week with the fosi v3, I listened to the others less and less, and eventually just the fosi for music.

So my suggestion would be to get something like the smsl su1 dac and a cheap amp of your choice (lots of options) and for $160-200 you can find out for yourself. Listen for a week. If you like it, great! Consider some higher priced options if you want more detail or power. If not, you now have a system for another room, and can pursue different directions. That's how I did it, and I think it's a good way to test the waters.

I am now using a purifi 400 amp, and a dac with a sinad of <120db.

 

[Ropeburn]

Here's what I did.

I tried a DAC with a sinad of 88, which was definitely a better measurement than the two others I had in integrated amps. I liked it immediately.

I tried an amp that cost me $80 US (Fosi V3) with a sinad of 88. Later added a 48v power supply. At first, I liked it, but compared to my other amps (a/b and vintage a), something missing. I wanted something that did everything they all did, they all had positives and negatives.

After a week with the fosi v3, I listened to the others less and less, and eventually just the fosi for music.

So my suggestion would be to get something like the smsl su1 dac and a cheap amp of your choice (lots of options) and for $160-200 you can find out for yourself. Listen for a week. If you like it, great! Consider some higher priced options if you want more detail or power. If not, you now have a system for another room, and can pursue different directions. That's how I did it, and I think it's a good way to test the waters.

I am now using a purifi 400 amp, and a dac with a sinad of <120db.

Fun fact: a lot of what you hear, as in music, is probably using instruments and gear that has 80dB noise floor or worse. Purely software-made electronic music aside, a LOT of gear would measure *horribly* by our ridiculously high standards of today. Yamaha TX81Z, 1988 synthesizer and on just about every late 80s and 90s dance record? It's noisy like crazy, not to speak of gnarly digital artifacts whenever a note plays. Still sometimes used to this day. Let alone buttloads of other instruments and mic preamps for recording acoustic instruments and whatnot. The average record or song is decidedly NOT "audiophile".

Of course it's always good to have a playback chain that can reproduce all of that in glorious detail. Hah!

 

[Ktacos]

I've got one of the worst measuring sinad amps (crown xli800) and a good measuring one, icepower module, sounds the same to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sokel]

Here's what I did.

I tried a DAC with a sinad of 88, which was definitely a better measurement than the two others I had in integrated amps. I liked it immediately.

I tried an amp that cost me $80 US (Fosi V3) with a sinad of 88. Later added a 48v power supply. At first, I liked it, but compared to my other amps (a/b and vintage a), something missing. I wanted something that did everything they all did, they all had positives and negatives.

After a week with the fosi v3, I listened to the others less and less, and eventually just the fosi for music.

So my suggestion would be to get something like the smsl su1 dac and a cheap amp of your choice (lots of options) and for $160-200 you can find out for yourself. Listen for a week. If you like it, great! Consider some higher priced options if you want more detail or power. If not, you now have a system for another room, and can pursue different directions. That's how I did it, and I think it's a good way to test the waters.

I am now using a purifi 400 amp, and a dac with a sinad of <120db.

An even better test is one of the SINAD champions with these "sound color"options
One can immediately change a 120dB with a 50dB or 60dB SINAD with a push of a button.

The consensus is no one hears a difference with music and we're not talking 80dB SINAD,but 60dB (0.1% THD+N),the usual limit of pro gear for decades.
As long as noise is in check distortion becomes irrelevant,the Klippel listening test is great tell.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

To add. I was playing through modified 1984 Heresies, so horns. Don't get the V3 it has load dependency, get an amp with PFFB, post filter feedback. Given the rise in treble you have, you don't want more (8 ohm) and given you like it you don't want less (4 ohm).

A clean signal into my heresies does not come out clean. But it comes out fun, and loud. I have sierra LX for clean clean now.

Oh, and for power, the purifi on medium gain with balanced connections and the V3 with the 48 v power supply and single ended play pretty close to the same level. Plenty loud.

 

[Rainier939]

To add. I was playing through modified 1984 Heresies, so horns. Don't get the V3 it has load dependency, get an amp with PFFB, post filter feedback. Given the rise in treble you have, you don't want more (8 ohm) and given you like it you don't want less (4 ohm).

A clean signal into my heresies does not come out clean. But it comes out fun, and loud. I have sierra LX for clean clean now.

Oh, and for power, the purifi on medium gain with balanced connections and the V3 with the 48 v power supply and single ended play pretty close to the same level. Plenty loud.

I'm starting to get the hots for the ice power 1200as2 module. It has so must power on tap for bursts. I have horns now but I want to build a 3way true full range speaker that most likely gonna be 3-4 ohms and 80-85db/2.83v so I want some big power for future proofing.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Fun fact: a lot of what you hear, as in music, is probably using instruments and gear that has 80dB noise floor or worse.

I am totally aware that the measurements of my current system go WAY beyond any audible threshold I could hear. Here's why I went with what I did.

It was less than $1300 US for amp and dac. I never have to even contemplate any issues or seek "better". It will power any speaker to way too high levels in my current or any future room.

It's not just a one and done, it's a one and done thinking about it system.

 

[Ropeburn]

I am totally aware that the measurements of my current system go WAY beyond any audible threshold I could hear. Here's why I went with what I did.

It was less than $1300 US for amp and dac. I never have to even contemplate any issues or seek "better". It will power any speaker to way too high levels in my current or any future room.

It's not just a one and done, it's a one and done thinking about it system.

That's exactly what I did recently, except for half that money, and for the same reasons you did. Good offer DAC for 120 (regular price 200), plus Hypex 252 poweramp for 480. 600 Euromoneys for that transparency and effortless power that together will serve me well for long years and a few decades to come? I consider that a steal.

The "forever system" should and does last 20 years in my opinion. And I'm pleased this kind of thing has become VERY affordable.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

If it's not too much work, you could measure for compression. Start with a high volume where you feel like it sounds good. Increase SPL to where you think it sounds worse.