PC (GPU or CPU) interference on audio interface

[Kusagane]

If using headphones and the adapter is powered from the USB port (via USB-C) - where is the ground loop? IMO it looks like the buzz comes from the power supply.

Yeah, I'm using headphones only in my tests, no monitors. Funny thing is that if I use an USB isolator like,I hear the noise only when i turn up the direct monitor.

Hope I can post links in this forum, I read something like me only in this thread, but seems like none solved that too: https://gearspace.com/board/audio-s...es-while-directly-monitoring-voice-overs.html

BTW, considering the GND, the ground loop can be like this:

socket > pc > AI > monitors > socket

but as you said i disconnected monitors at all and i'm using this usb isolator, so i'm surprised too:

socket > pc > AI > ?? (mic and headphones) ... there's no loop.

Thats why I'm still on this question that it seems we can't give an answer. If usb isolator solved the noise, how can the noise appear if I turn up the direct monitoring?

I think that if the problem would be the power supply (of the pc), I expect to hear the noise like before (with no usb isolators) in any case, even if direct monitoring is down.

So this brings me to think like the problem is really due to inputs, microphone or cable. because if i disconnect the cable from the AI obviously the noise go away.

Well, thanks for your patience and attention til now to all of you guys. I'm comin home in like 1 hour and take those tests. After that i will report you all and maybe you can understand better what I can't understand by myself and help me to solve this problem I'm having. thanks

 

[phofman]

Maybe there are two issues - noisy USB power supply ("fixed" by regenerating the power supply in the USB isolator), and noise induced into the microphone input.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Are the monitors physically disconnected from the audio interface when testing? (If not, any difference between or or both being connected?)

If it's just the interface with headphones and mic, direct monitoring should be clean. If not, some interfaces have issues with RF interference on the mic input, though that wouldn't sound like your average ground loop. Clearing the vicinity of WiFi APs, DECT bases and handsets and mobile phones should resolve such issues. The physical distance between PC and interface may also be worth playing with, even if I can't imagine that a PC could be generating that much RF.

 

[Kusagane]

@staticV3 @phofman @AnalogSteph

Guys we got this.

I tried with a different phone charger directly into the AI but it was the same.

Then I tried the power bank, same. After that I said: "I can sit on my sofa while testing with a power bank", well the noise gone away.

Ok then, no problems in connections, but just RF? Ok, I stand up I tried to move my cable nearly to the PC box and initially i thought was that, the cable receiving RF cause weak shield. I changed cable with a long one. Placed AI and mic far away on the sofa, The 5m cable sticked to the pc and nothing, nearing the AI neither.

The issue is my mic capting those interference. I keep my pc at my left and its high on a desk drawer, the pc is at desktop level on my left. the mis right in front of me in the center.

If I stick my ear to the pc I can hear a little noise like the one I hear in the headphones, omg.

I know i can save myself by keep the mic far away, but if i need it here.. what solutions do I have to solve this?

I mean, I really still would appreciate to solve the problem in the source, so in the pc. like in the beginning, but I know could be harder, for me at least. I imagine that if I solve the problem in the pc i can prevent future problems with other gears and no need to use usb isolators too.. and I can refund it.

Second chance maybe can be ferrite beads on the mic cable that filter noise comin from mic? I heard something bout that.

Third, manage the mic, isolating him internally? Or even changin it with a condenser one I was planning to buy in any case? (sm58 btw is dynamic so it is supposed that is less sensitive than a condenser, the situation can be worse with a condenser)

Waiting for your kind help, thanks really you all write here.

PS: speakin about wifi, my pc is cable connected to modem, no wifi here.

PPS: I opened my pc and tried to understand where the noise come from through the microfone. The higher noise I can listen is when I put the mic near the graphic card. A little bit seems from the motherboard but I think the main noise is the PNY RTX 4070 Ti. Maybe I got scammed buying this? Do usually graphic cards create RF?

 

[staticV3]

I know i can save myself by keep the mic far away, but if i need it here.. what solutions do I have to solve this?

If it's GPU coil whine you're hearing (very common, no sign of defects), you can try undervolting your GPU.

You can find guides for this on Youtube. Optimum tech makes good ones.

 

[kyuu]

It's also possible the computer's PSU is putting out some RF interference, particularly if it's some cheap-o model. Although if you can hear the noise by ear close to the case, coil whine as staticV3 suggests is a likely culprit.

 

[Kusagane]

@staticV3 @kyuu

thank you guys, I'll try to undervolting the GPU as you told me, following this video: video

I read in the comments that some people had coil whine, maybe worse than mine, cause they can hear it even without a mic, but just with their ears. And this video solved their problem.

The difference is that, in my case, the noise is really quite and you can't really notice it with ears only, but if I bring my mic closer to the GPU the noise is really consistent, like a thrash radio channel.

I'll try this right this evening when I'll be at home.

I thank you so much meanwhile, because I would never reach this knowledge without this forum and so many answers by all the people. Great partecipation, this is a very active forum. Glad to be here now. Thanks!

 

[AnalogSteph]

Can you determine whether the mic is picking up the noise electrically or acoustically? (Put it in a padded box or wrap it in foam next to the computer or something.)

It appears that the SM58 does not have a humbucking coil. As such, the voice coil will have a propensity of inductively coupling to loops with a bunch of current going around - of which there is no shortage inside a PC with a high-power GPU. (On the GPU itself, but also its power cabling.) You may be able to tune out the biggest culprits by changing mic orientation. You can also try to reduce GPU power supply loop area by routing the 12VHPWR cable alongside the 24-pin ATX, then near the board towards the PCIe slot. (There is usually a fair bit of current making its way back via the PCIe slot and the 24-pin.) Undervolting obviously helps because it reduces the currents.

SM58 alternative with humbucking coil

It's called a humbucking coil because the problem first reared its ugly head when miking up guitar amplifiers with transformer power supplies, where you'd get to hear the mains hum from current circulating in the transformer windings (and usually that transformer would be a classic EI type with substantial stray magnetic fields, plus you never know whether the secondary windings are nice and twisted). The coil itself is an external inductor placed close to the voice coil wired in series, oriented in such a way that it picks up magnetic fields with the opposite polarity, effectively neutralizing the inductance seen externally.

If you can't manage the problem any other way, there's still the option of getting a condenser mic. If you'd like to stick with a 2"-ish (~5 cm) speaking distance, they're making condenser vocal mics similar to the SM58 for stage use that are tuned for this sort of use (e.g. the Beta 58A, or similar by Sennheiser and others). The venerable SM7B seems to have a humbucking coil as well, but I'm not sure whether the 2X2's mic preamp is quiet enough for this notoriously low-output mic. Otherwise there's obviously a large variety of side-address condensers if speaking distance is more like 8" (20 cm). Not sure whether your PC still is quiet enough with the GPU going full tilt. Make sure it is towards the back of a cardioid pattern mic, or 120° off from a supercardioid.

 

[Sal1950]

Do you have the possiblity of connecting your PC to the amp via Toslink optical cable?
That would eliminate any ground loop problems.

 

[Kusagane]

Can you determine whether the mic is picking up the noise electrically or acoustically? (Put it in a padded box or wrap it in foam next to the computer or something.)

It appears that the SM58 does not have a humbucking coil. As such, the voice coil will have a propensity of inductively coupling to loops with a bunch of current going around - of which there is no shortage inside a PC with a high-power GPU. (On the GPU itself, but also its power cabling.) You may be able to tune out the biggest culprits by changing mic orientation. You can also try to reduce GPU power supply loop area by routing the 12VHPWR cable alongside the 24-pin ATX, then near the board towards the PCIe slot. (There is usually a fair bit of current making its way back via the PCIe slot and the 24-pin.) Undervolting obviously helps because it reduces the currents.

SM58 alternative with humbucking coil

It's called a humbucking coil because the problem first reared its ugly head when miking up guitar amplifiers with transformer power supplies, where you'd get to hear the mains hum from current circulating in the transformer windings (and usually that transformer would be a classic EI type with substantial stray magnetic fields, plus you never know whether the secondary windings are nice and twisted). The coil itself is an external inductor placed close to the voice coil wired in series, oriented in such a way that it picks up magnetic fields with the opposite polarity, effectively neutralizing the inductance seen externally.

If you can't manage the problem any other way, there's still the option of getting a condenser mic. If you'd like to stick with a 2"-ish (~5 cm) speaking distance, they're making condenser vocal mics similar to the SM58 for stage use that are tuned for this sort of use (e.g. the Beta 58A, or similar by Sennheiser and others). The venerable SM7B seems to have a humbucking coil as well, but I'm not sure whether the 2X2's mic preamp is quiet enough for this notoriously low-output mic. Otherwise there's obviously a large variety of side-address condensers if speaking distance is more like 8" (20 cm). Not sure whether your PC still is quiet enough with the GPU going full tilt. Make sure it is towards the back of a cardioid pattern mic, or 120° off from a supercardioid.

Can you determine whether the mic is picking up the noise electrically or acoustically? (Put it in a padded box or wrap it in foam next to the computer or something.)

Well i think is electrically, because yesterday i tried covering him with his pop foam and nothing changed (it is intended for wind btw). Btw the bzzz is really low you can't hear it with your ears, you notice it only if you go very close to the GPU and it's still really low. That's why now I'm almost sure it can be EMI, instead of coil whine... I'm reading somethign right now..

You can also try to reduce GPU power supply loop area by routing the 12VHPWR cable alongside the 24-pin ATX, then near the board towards the PCIe slot.

I have to study it about, because I don't know what does it mean right now..

It's called a humbucking coil because the problem first reared its ugly head when miking up guitar amplifiers with transformer power supplies, where you'd get to hear the mains hum from current circulating in the transformer windings (and usually that transformer would be a classic EI type with substantial stray magnetic fields, plus you never know whether the secondary windings are nice and twisted). The coil itself is an external inductor placed close to the voice coil wired in series, oriented in such a way that it picks up magnetic fields with the opposite polarity, effectively neutralizing the inductance seen externally.

Yeah I've experienced this since I'm a guitarist, but since I bought this PC I haven't tried my guitars yet. I have humbuckers and single coil guitars. So I can understand what you say here.

If you can't manage the problem any other way, there's still the option of getting a condenser mic. If you'd like to stick with a 2"-ish (~5 cm) speaking distance, they're making condenser vocal mics similar to the SM58 for stage use that are tuned for this sort of use (e.g. the Beta 58A, or similar by Sennheiser and others). The venerable SM7B seems to have a humbucking coil as well, but I'm not sure whether the 2X2's mic preamp is quiet enough for this notoriously low-output mic. Otherwise there's obviously a large variety of side-address condensers if speaking distance is more like 8" (20 cm).

Speakin about the distance, I prefer like a 20 cm distance to use. the sm58 isn't properly a desktop mic as you said, but a stage one. I know, but I had this one only.

I have the possibility to try a beta 58A (my girlfriend) and a sm7b (friend of mine). I didn't know the beta 58A is a condenser, I'm pretty sure is a dynamic. Thought it was like a sm58, but with more gain or frequency (never informed about that sorry) I'll try those during this week end.

About the sm7b. My fiend has an arturia mini fuse interface and we tested it together with this mic. As you said cheap interfaces like those aren't enaugh for this mic. We are using it with the gain at max, speaking close to the mic (5 cm) and is decent, but not really the best situation. need a bettter pre for this, that's why I'm not considering to buy now, but just for testing.

Otherwise there's obviously a large variety of side-address condensers if speaking distance is more like 8" (20 cm).

Yeah, I was planning for years to buy a condenser to place on my desktop, but a decent one in a low price range, to achieve the 20cm speaking distance instead. But I never chose which. The last one I was considering is this: https://www.thomann.it/rode_nt1a_complete_vocal_recording.htm what do you think about? Seems like one best budget most used..

@Sal1950 No my interface doesn't have Toslink.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I have to study it about, because I don't know what does it mean right now..

So I guess you didn't build the PC yourself then? Try asking someone with experience in this field, they should know what I mean.

I didn't know the beta 58A is a condenser, I'm pretty sure is a dynamic.

Ooops, looks like you're right, my bad. Beta 87A or Sennheiser E865 would have been more like it.

Yeah, I was planning for years to buy a condenser to place on my desktop, but a decent one in a low price range, to achieve the 20cm speaking distance instead. But I never chose which. The last one I was considering is this: https://www.thomann.it/rode_nt1a_complete_vocal_recording.htm what do you think about? Seems like one best budget most used..

I've honestly never been a big fan of the NT1A's hyped response... The A stands for "announcer", so it has some "radio voice" EQ built-in. The non-A NT1 is a good one though, so I'd give the NT1 Signature a look. Thomann also seems to have the AT2035 back in stock, another good value option (though whether I'd pay more for one than the NT1, I'm not sure... it sounds nice and has integrated 10 dB pad and 80 Hz low-cut switches but isn't the lowest-noise option).

 

[Izaac]

Let share my small expereince with noise from PC components.

I have a custom PC and when i have time, i make some music - noise via USB soundcard (Arturia AudioRig16) 5 external synths.

Issues i had:

• noise from mouse movement in OS, DAW, Games, DAW - Ableton
• noise from CPU processing - after upgrade of mobo and CPU the noise remained
• noise via USB cable to synths which was audible in audio input of the soundcard - DAW
• noise via USB cable to soundcard
• noise in games

There was no humming or grounding issue as i connected everything to one socket and strip.

What i tried and works:

• IfiDefender - reduced most noise (CPU processing) when u added the Idefender between PC USB2/USB3 and the soundcard
• Changed wired keybaord and mouse to wireless - mouse movement completely disappeared

Now the noise is at acceptable level in DAW via all inputs i still see some peaks of certain frequencies and i would like to buy a new power supply

I havent tried yet:

• but i will buy a new powersupply rated as Gold or Platinum
• buy another brand USB noise filtering and set it between PC USB and synth

Hope this helps someone. I appologize for my bad english.

 

[phofman]

@Izaac : what is your analog chain behind the soundcard? Your issue sounds like the classical ground loop.

Changed wired keybaord and mouse to wireless - mouse movement completely disappeared

That could be caused by using different USB port, or by different USB communication pattern with the wireless base adapter.

 

[Izaac]

@Izaac : what is your analog chain behind the soundcard? Your issue sounds like the classical ground loop.

That could be caused by using different USB port, or by different USB communication pattern with the wireless base adapter.

Could be.

Tested probably all combinations...

I unplugged every usb device and synth from USBs. Only kept and connected PC, Monitor, Wireless Keyboard and Mouse, USB soundcard. Next tested soudncard without Ifi then with ifi, checked noise and interference in DAW, switched to USB2,USB3 every port and tested, then added one synth via MIDI only checked noise and interference in DAW. Tried only USB cable and noise and interference in DAW. Removed ifi from soundcard and tried on the synth USB only, then with MIDI only, then booth....etc.

Took my a while to find the best configuration with least noise, but now i can see and hear only noise from 2k - 20k when i extemely turn up the volume. Nosie frequency with depends on the synth manufacturer.

I forget to mention that the intergrated audiocard is dead silent.

 

[phofman]

And the audio chain behind the soundcard is what?

 

[Izaac]

And the audio chain behind the soundcard is what?

Nothing as i live in a apartment house and i care about my neighbours I have a Sennheiser HD 600 plugged to my soundcard.

 

[pablolie]

The only time I hear any signal issues (albeit minor) is because of smartphone activity close to my workstation.

The USB ports have never acted up for me, but if they were... the fact many DACs still use Type B USB and most isolators I have seen do not... makes things a bit messy, not?

 

[Kusagane]

So I guess you didn't build the PC yourself then? Try asking someone with experience in this field, they should know what I mean.

Ooops, looks like you're right, my bad. Beta 87A or Sennheiser E865 would have been more like it.

I've honestly never been a big fan of the NT1A's hyped response... The A stands for "announcer", so it has some "radio voice" EQ built-in. The non-A NT1 is a good one though, so I'd give the NT1 Signature a look. Thomann also seems to have the AT2035 back in stock, another good value option (though whether I'd pay more for one than the NT1, I'm not sure... it sounds nice and has integrated 10 dB pad and 80 Hz low-cut switches but isn't the lowest-noise option).

No, I didn't build the pc by myself. I'm not able to.
Tried with SM7B this week end and nothing changed, just the volume of the noise, but it's obvious because SM7B has a lower output. So it's not a mic defect.
Thank you for your recomendation bout the NT1, I'll take a look at.
I haven't tried to unvolt the GPU yet sry, but I tried to limit frame on my game to 180 fr (240 before) like my screen rate (180hz) and the noise just lowered a bit. Moved the mic a bit far from the pc and this was a bit better, moved the soundcard too even if it causes no issues. It's sad I have to limit graphic quality just cause of the noise, but seems like this is the price to hear myself on direct input while playing.
I'm considering this is a nice solutiomn btw, the noise is really low now.
My friend has the pc down on the floor, under the desk, using a cheap arturia AI and SM7B on the desk having no problems even at high frame rates.

Let share my small expereince with noise from PC components.

I have a custom PC and when i have time, i make some music - noise via USB soundcard (Arturia AudioRig16) 5 external synths.

Issues i had:

• noise from mouse movement in OS, DAW, Games, DAW - Ableton
• noise from CPU processing - after upgrade of mobo and CPU the noise remained
• noise via USB cable to synths which was audible in audio input of the soundcard - DAW
• noise via USB cable to soundcard
• noise in games

There was no humming or grounding issue as i connected everything to one socket and strip.

What i tried and works:

• IfiDefender - reduced most noise (CPU processing) when u added the Idefender between PC USB2/USB3 and the soundcard
• Changed wired keybaord and mouse to wireless - mouse movement completely disappeared

Now the noise is at acceptable level in DAW via all inputs i still see some peaks of certain frequencies and i would like to buy a new power supply

I havent tried yet:

• but i will buy a new powersupply rated as Gold or Platinum
• buy another brand USB noise filtering and set it between PC USB and synth

Hope this helps someone. I appologize for my bad english.

Thank you for reporting your experience, I have keyboard and mouse wireless too. one socket one strip me too. I chose to use the adum 3165 instead of the iDefender btw, just cause it does the same job but saving an outlet on the strip. Thanks to @staticV3 for the advice.

I'll consider to watch out for a power supply, but i read many cases in which this didn't solve the problem. But every case it's unique, it can work or not.

I don't have synth right now, so I can't help you with those. I just use a little usb keyboard controller by arturia and this doesn't matter.

The only time I hear any signal issues (albeit minor) is because of smartphone activity close to my workstation.

The USB ports have never acted up for me, but if they were... the fact many DACs still use Type B USB and most isolators I have seen do not... makes things a bit messy, not?

yeah, agree with you. that's the matter with cheap DACs with built pc. Btw with a DAC it's easy i think, this USB isolator worked for me. The added issue is when u have to add some inputs like mics or guitars like me. Well u have antoher source that amplifies the pc noise not from cables, but from RF or EMI (in my case).

Need to undervolt my GPU when I have time, then I can say you more guys.

PS: Just to make you smile: I tried to create a barrier between my pc and mic with aluminium foil I found in my kitchen but this ddin't work. I just thought of my guitars that I insulated with it internally. Thought it could work the same, but nah.

Talk you soon.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I unplugged every usb device and synth from USBs. Only kept and connected PC, Monitor, Wireless Keyboard and Mouse, USB soundcard. Next tested soudncard without Ifi then with ifi, checked noise and interference in DAW, switched to USB2,USB3 every port and tested, then added one synth via MIDI only checked noise and interference in DAW. Tried only USB cable and noise and interference in DAW. Removed ifi from soundcard and tried on the synth USB only, then with MIDI only, then booth....etc.

Took my a while to find the best configuration with least noise, but now i can see and hear only noise from 2k - 20k when i extemely turn up the volume. Nosie frequency with depends on the synth manufacturer.

And you didn't see any patterns emerging regarding which synth(s) could be problematic? Was there any configuration at all with none of the USB-related noise?

What kind of cables are you using to connect the synths?

I forget to mention that the intergrated audiocard is dead silent.

Even with one of the synths plugged in (the recording, I mean)?

 

[Izaac]

And you didn't see any patterns emerging regarding which synth(s) could be problematic? Was there any configuration at all with none of the USB-related noise?

What kind of cables are you using to connect the synths?

Even with one of the synths plugged in (the recording, I mean)?

Q1: In all combination there was a noise. I watched Martin Stürtzer - Prophet 10 vs Repro-5 video and he metions the noise as well
Q2: Depends on the synth but everywhere i can i use balanced cables.
Q3: Yes.

Below you can see for example the Moog Minitaur, its picking up noise and specific freqeuncies that peak. I can hear them when i turn up the gain and i can hear the data processing.

For fun i ordered a ADUM3160 - USB filter and it looks much better.