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Passive vs active DSP speakers KEF and Genelec

echopraxia

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You are right, of course. I forgot about the DSP based cross-overs. When you think about what you get "out of the box" with the Genelec in terms of performance it is pretty incredible.

Definitely... and other active speaker brands like Neumann (I am not sure if Genelec has a competitor to the KH310 in the same price range, for example). I wish I knew this early on, but here I am — thousands of dollars in amps and AV receivers later, finding myself moving in a direction where I won’t need those amps anyway.

Even Music1969’s questions about my amp used with the KEF R3 is a perfect example of why I prefer active speakers: I don’t know about you, but I really don’t want to have to worry about amp choices or amp pairing or whether one of many dimensions of my amp may or may not be a good match to my speakers.
 

Senior NEET Engineer

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I am also curious about this. And to understand whether they really need a sub in a medium room. Mine is 14 x 22 x about 9.5 (3,000 sq ft).

Your hypothesis about the 40-400 Hz regions between the KEF and Genelec is interesting too. Particularly since the Genelec is not using EQ in those graphs.

Depends on how deep the bass is. My room is 3000 cu ft as well. At -20 dB on the receiver and playing "Terrors In My Head", I measure around 87 db SPL and 105 dB peak SPL from 7 ft away. At 20 ft away, I didn't notice much difference in volume. But with lower volume setting and subwoofer channel downmixed, I got the warning lights to flash during a movie nuclear explosion scene.
 
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HooStat

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At -20 dB on the receiver and playing "Terrors In My Head",
Thank you. So you are sending an analog signal into the speaker? It seems that is the easiest way to use it. That is the thing that is currently hanging me up -- how to send AES/EBU digital signals from HDMI and from Tidal (USB from a computer) and to control the volume in a simple way.
 

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Thank you. So you are sending an analog signal into the speaker? It seems that is the easiest way to use it. That is the thing that is currently hanging me up -- how to send AES/EBU digital signals from HDMI and from Tidal (USB from a computer) and to control the volume in a simple way.

Yes analog. That is the least of my concerns for sound quality.
 

echopraxia

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I watched that entire video. This is a bad review — except perhaps from the perspective of science deniers, or those ignorant to the science.

Too many subjective descriptions like “refinement” and “detail extraction” etc., and it’s clear he buys into snake-oil with his expensive audio quest cables and amps. Most of the difference he describes between these can be easily explained by frequency response differences.

I appreciate that he at least tries not to use descriptors like “musical”, and is helping introduce / popularize active speakers into the snake-oil audiophile world, at least.

But this is by no means a good or well-informed (unless he’s hiding it) comparison of active vs passive. For example, he WAY overspends on amps that probably massively underperform cheaper Hypex amps as reviewed on this site, and completely omits any discussion on DSP or room correction.

For reference, this is the same guy who promoted using a $15k DAC to feed the analog inputs to the Genelec 8341 while willingly choosing NOT to use the digital inputs! This is laughably absurd, given that this is a digital active speaker that must convert any analog inputs into digital first before it does anything at all with them. And he does this in the same review where he *acknowledges* that it has digital inputs, and that he *consciously* opts for the $15k DAC into analog inputs anyway — which is not only wasteful of money, but objectively can only ever reduce sound quality by losing information from extra conversion steps.

He is therefore either utterly incompetent at understanding audio signal chains, OR compromised by marketing pressure to push expensive snake oil producers like his audioquest cables and $15k DACs and similarly overpriced amps. In either case, you as a consumer will be far better off if you steer clear from his reviews.
 
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Sancus

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I watched that entire video.

You're a better person than me, lol. Dropping a 17-minute video in a forum thread with no explanation, especially from a known-bad source, is basically like coming into a room and shitting on the floor.
 

echopraxia

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You're a better person than me, lol. Dropping a 17-minute video in a forum thread with no explanation, especially from a known-bad source, is basically like coming into a room and shitting on the floor.
Haha I have to say I love the analogy, and am still giggling a bit at the amusing mental image.

I‘m sure Zvu has good intentions though, and maybe isn’t aware of how bad these snakeoil audiophile reviews are. My response was mostly hopefully for the benefit or Zvu, or anyone else who might risk falling for these reviews and consequently wasting thousands of dollars on bad products pushed by bad reviewers — like I did prior to learning more about audio science.

(KEF makes objectively excellent products, but I’m referring to the snakeoil cables and overpriced amps, DACs, and generally bad advise about how to find the best speakers etc.)
 

echopraxia

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Yes analog. That is the least of my concerns for sound quality.
I do wish AVRs were capable of digital out, or TVs has digital out with volume control — if only for convenience. It seems there is no technical reason the TV industry shouldn’t be capable of supporting this. I guess the industry is just stuck on passive speaker products controlled from a single AVR. With that said, yeah I suppose the analog outputs should work fine. I wish we could find a AVR or HDMI processor with quality DACs though, unlike the results of most AVR reviews I’m aware of here.

For PCs and music streamers though, digital works great. There are plenty of good options getting AES/EBU from a PC via USB or otherwise. And many music streamers have either coaxial or optical SPDIF digital outputs.

P.S. I do see a number of HDMI audio to SPDIF extractors on Amazon for $20-$30 each. Who knows which of them would work very well, but since it’s a digital signal there shouldn’t be much need to worry about sound quality issues unless there’s an extreme clock jitter issue or something.
 
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aarons915

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I just carried one of the 8351B’s into a room next to the Neumann KH310... I can confirm they are significantly better (neither are EQ’ed, both running in analog mode). I am shocked, since I expected the 8351B’s would shine most clearly nearfield, and be harder to choose a winner in a larger room.

Unfortunately, this confuses me immensely. I had a running theory that broader dispersion is preferred in larger rooms. The Neumann KH310 has slightly broader horizontal dispersion, yet I prefer the Genelecs here too!

The R3 is still so good though, I honestly still don't fully understand why it didn't win the blind test against my Sierra 2EX (and I prefer both my Neumanns and my Genelecs to the Sierra 2EX). And I'm not sure why it didn't impress me the way my Neumanns or Genelecs have.

I really think the even dispersion in all directions that coaxials provide just sounds more natural than line-source speakers, even if they give up a bit of dispersion in the horizontal plane. A good comparison to check the dispersion theory would be to compare the 8331/8341 to the 8351 and see if the slightly wider dispersion in the smaller versions makes an audible difference.

I think the R3 is a good speaker too but I'm of a similar opinion that if a speaker is harsh or fatiguing at all, it doesn't matter how good the rest of it sounds, it's going back. I wish I would have had the Klippel measurements of the R3 when I tried them because they seem very easy to EQ. I used to think a passive speaker should just be perfect out of the box but measurements on this site are making it obvious that most passives benefit from a bit of EQ.
 

Zvu

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...........(KEF makes objectively excellent products, but I’m referring to the snakeoil cables and overpriced amps, DACs, and generally bad advise about how to find the best speakers etc.)

How did some snake oil behind the guy prevented you to listen about subjective differences between passive and active loudspeakers ? I'm so far from equipment he uses that it crazy. I could never recognise any cable because i use "ordinary" OFC copper cables. The price of his amps or DACs really doesn't bother me because i really don't know it. What kind of measurement technique or gradation should be there to show the advantage of active vs passive or vice versa ? If the acoustic field is presented the same (similarly good spinorama mesaurements) and the amplifiers in both case measure good enough not to be considered faulty - what remains is personal preference. Would your impression be any different if he used a more spartan aproach, say DRC, Benchmark DAC3 and two Purifi D-class modules ?

The results would be different if he had used some form of room correction for Kef Reference 1 but even without it, Darko preffered Kef instead of Kii Three. I certainly won't get into argument if he is biased or not. Every one of us is biased untill we put curtain between us and systems we're listening. Also, i couldn't care less if he preferred Kii instead of Kef - i have no emotional or material stake in it. I just enjoy seing clash of two concepts. I've listened Kii lots of times and i really can't wait to hear Kef Reference 1. I know both are good loudspeakers and both are measured lots of times (wouldn't mind seing both of them measured by Amir though). Differences would be explained by room interraction with loudspeakers because their directivity indexes differ - what would i like better depends on that interaction and personal preference: so highly subjective.

You're a better person than me, lol. Dropping a 17-minute video in a forum thread with no explanation, especially from a known-bad source, is basically like coming into a room and shitting on the floor.

I could extract few lines that i think are important and an explanation for the ones with add, having problem to concentrate 17 minutes on one thing. Naively, i wanted everyone to draw their own conclusion/impression without my yay or nay attitude.
 
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Sancus

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I could extract few lines that i think are important and an explanation for the ones with add, having problem to concentrate 17 minutes on one thing. Naively, i wanted everyone to draw their own conclusion/impression without my yay or nay attitude.

It's not a question of ADD, it's a question of wasting people's time, which I consider somewhat rude. The vast majority of "lets discuss the difference between these things"-type YouTube videos contain at most 1-2 pages of actual information. The ONLY reason they are videos, rather than articles, is because it's much easier to force people to view ads in video. And that's all ignoring the fact that this guy's videos, in particular, are quite poor.

How did some snake oil behind the guy prevented you to listen about subjective differences between passive and active loudspeakers ?

I don't know why you would want someone else to tell you their subjective perceived differences, because that's personal to them and cannot be generalized to anyone else. And the whole idea that there's any inherent difference between passive and active speakers is silly. They are two technical methods of achieving the same goal. You can take any passive loudspeaker, make an active version and improve it(if perhaps only a little).
 

Hugo9000

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LOL!

It's not about being able to concentrate or not on a 17-minute "review" video. Why would we waste our time on a known shill who has a monetized channel that doesn't allow comments on his own site any longer, and either has comments turned off on youtube videos, or selectively removes comments (or has that changed recently?).

Some of us don't wish to add traffic to such people's websites or youtube channels.


Oh, and with the 17 minutes saved by NOT watching that video, we could enjoy the full version of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, Love to Love You Baby, or the complete MacArthur Park Suite!





or this treasure:

 

echopraxia

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I really think the even dispersion in all directions that coaxials provide just sounds more natural than line-source speakers, even if they give up a bit of dispersion in the horizontal plane. A good comparison to check the dispersion theory would be to compare the 8331/8341 to the 8351 and see if the slightly wider dispersion in the smaller versions makes an audible difference.

I think the R3 is a good speaker too but I'm of a similar opinion that if a speaker is harsh or fatiguing at all, it doesn't matter how good the rest of it sounds, it's going back. I wish I would have had the Klippel measurements of the R3 when I tried them because they seem very easy to EQ. I used to think a passive speaker should just be perfect out of the box but measurements on this site are making it obvious that most passives benefit from a bit of EQ.
Maybe so. The 8351B certainly sounds incredible — sounds way better than anything else I’ve tried in the same room, including the KEF R3 vs Sierra 2EX. So I don’t understand why I prefer Genelec 8351B > Neumann KH310 > Sierra 2EX > KEF R3. (I haven’t tested the KH120 in this room).

Any hypotheses I might have had about dispersion width explaining the Sierra 2EX winning over the KEF R3 no longer make sense now, given how much I prefer the Genelec 8351B in the same room, yet the KEF R3 which also measures quite well didn’t blow me away.

Maybe it’s something to do with actives and/or the frequency response and bass extension that actives enable. It would be very interesting to hear a KEF R3 equalized to perfect flatness from anechoic measurements or from Amir’s Klippel data — I wonder if this extraordinary flatness is what makes these actives consistently on top of any comparison I’ve done lately.
 
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Zvu

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It's not a question of ADD, it's a question of wasting people's time, which I consider somewhat rude. The vast majority of "lets discuss the difference between these things"-type YouTube videos contain at most 1-2 pages of actual information. The ONLY reason they are videos, rather than articles, is because it's much easier to force people to view ads in video. And that's all ignoring the fact that this guy's videos, in particular, are quite poor....

Everyone is judge for themselves if their time is wasted or not. Looking at a screen on ASR forum isn't done if you don't have some time to spare. Nobody forces you to watch it.

...I don't know why you would want someone else to tell you their subjective perceived differences, because that's personal to them and cannot be generalized to anyone else. And the whole idea that there's any inherent difference between passive and active speakers is silly. They are two technical methods of achieving the same goal. You can take any passive loudspeaker, make an active version and improve it(if perhaps only a little).

If you haven't realized already, i'm not trying to extrapolate any information for myself from his impressions before i get to listen to both loudspeaker in the same room (which could very well happen soon). What i do like is when my listening impressions matches someones from half way around the globe. If i listen these speakers in the same room and if i make measurements of it, i'll definitely post it here. What will that mean for you or anyone reading this thread ? That measurements are valid for speakers in that room and with that equipment. Mitch measured and compared JBL 4722 vs Kef LS50:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

What could you derive from his measurements if there weren't his subjective impressions ? If subjective impressions were of no value, JBL, Revel, Kef and countless other manufacturers would just use mikes and software to make a good pair of speakers. Yet, everyone of them uses listeners as final judge and rely on their subjective impressions to interpret measurements (that are objective by nature, good or bad).
 

echopraxia

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Everyone is judge for themselves if their time is wasted or not.
Well I’m probably the only one here who watched that video, and my time was definitely wasted by it. But more than that, it seems my time was also wasted in trying to explain to you why that reviewer is a terribly poor source if you’re looking for quality objective information. So yeah, Sancus is right.

I vote we avoid wasting more time, and change the topic back to active Genelec vs passive KEF.
 

Zvu

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Well I’m probably the only one here who watched that video, and my time was definitely wasted by it. But more than that, it seems my time was also wasted in trying to explain to you why that reviewer is a terribly poor source if you’re looking for quality objective information. So yeah, Sancus is right...

Do point me to a good source of objective information for subjective impressions, since measurements we already have and are stelar both for Kii and for Kef Ref 1.
 

echopraxia

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Do point me to a good source of objective information of subjective impressions, since measurements we already have.

Blind listening tests are probably what you want. Unfortunately, there aren’t many blind listening tests out there. I’ve done a posted them, and a few others around here have done them. You can contribute if you want.

Aside from that, most of these subjective reviews (that are not blind) are unreliable at best, and financially compromised by advertising at worst (likely the case for this guy).

But as a general rule of thumb, there are a set of red flags to look for which if seen, should steer you far away from trusting ANYTHING a reviewer says. Some of those red flags include promoting using a DAC to use the analog inputs to a digital speaker that will be re-digitizing them anyway before using those signals. Or anyone promoting overpriced amps without the empirical measurements to back it up. Or anyone promoting using expensive audiophile cable products or other pure snakeoil trash. All of which this John Darko reviewer does.
 

richard12511

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Maybe so. The 8351B certainly sounds incredible — sounds way better than anything else I’ve tried in the same room, including the KEF R3 vs Sierra 2EX. So I don’t understand why I prefer Genelec 8351B > Neumann KH310 > Sierra 2EX > KEF R3. (I haven’t tested the KH120 in this room).

Any hypotheses I might have had about dispersion width explaining the Sierra 2EX winning over the KEF R3 no longer make sense now, given how much I prefer the Genelec 8351B in the same room, yet the KEF R3 which also measures quite well didn’t blow me away.

Maybe it’s something to do with actives and/or the frequency response and bass extension that actives enable. It would be very interesting to hear a KEF R3 equalized to perfect flatness from anechoic measurements or from Amir’s Klippel data — I wonder if this extraordinary flatness is what makes these actives consistently on top of any comparison I’ve done lately.

Do actives really increase bass extension? I'm sure some do. It seems like many just EQ more extension in, which(imo) doesn't actually increase extension, it just limits the max output of the other frequencies. You could do the same with passive speakers, it's just that you have to do it yourself.
 

Zvu

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@echopraxia I trust only my own ears. Not someones impressions, nor any preference rating score. I find both approaches interesting though. Not wanting to look like someone who despise measurements, here are some i made for a standmount three way i'm developing at the moment - passive crossover. Mic 1m, 11ms gate and 1dB grid height resolution:

0, 10 and 20 deg off axis

https://i.postimg.cc/9XDGrLWj/0-10-20.png

30, 40 and 50 deg off axis

https://i.postimg.cc/GmCYgrvc/30-40-50.png

60, 70 and 80 deg off axis

https://i.postimg.cc/P5QDBcM1/60-70-80.png

0 and 90 degrees off axis - 5dB gridline

https://i.postimg.cc/dtdr9DkH/0-90.png

Could use some DSP power though when i put it in my room.
 
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