Passive Speaker That Is Most Revealing Under 1000 USD

[MarkWinston]

Across a number of threads you've declared you've got golden ears and are constantly asking about amp and speaker pairings and synergy. You are also looking to replace speakers you've just bought. Part of the reason for this site is to avoid not only snake oil, but audio purchases always resulting in "the road not traveled" or "the next one to get away." Some people enjoy the constant switching, purchasing, and selling to get the elusive "perfect wave", or maybe just to experience how all of the different products sound and feel to them. If so that's cool but golden ears to many of us is a treadmill of disappointment. Because those who proclaim this need to realize the only way to pursue sound is to try out every product and combination themselves. Trusting measurements and correlating them with your preferences of sound will greatly reduce the universe of choices.

Do show me where I stated I have golden ears or Ill take that as a serious accusation. Ill wait. And if you are on the same 'all good amps sound the same' wagon, point me to that direction. Ill wait some more. I dont see any problem asking for recommendations on amp and speaker synergy, unless you are a stubborn know it all and think that asking about something you dont know is 'losing face'. If I dont know about something, I ask. Many out there have much more experience than me and Im all ears and willing to learn.

I bought speakers that measure well here, even ones getting a soccer panther like the JBL A130 but I disliked the sound with no eq. Nothing wrong with selling speakers that you dont like, especially nowadays when people are buying based on reviews and measurements. Ask me what speakers I bought that I didnt sell until this day, it outnumbers the ones I sell off quick. And this has nothing to do with golden ears, even IF I have it. If you think that everyone hears the same thing in a given equipment, think again. Thats the beauty of this hobby. And yes, measurements sure will help a lot, but sometimes people make the mistake of buying something they dont like. I havent sold off anything that I bought after listening to it.

 

[Colonel7]

Do show me where I stated I have golden ears or Ill take that as a serious accusation. Ill wait. And if you are on the same 'all good amps sound the same' wagon, point me to that direction. Ill wait some more.

Alrighty then - What are YOU waiting for? Do your ABX testing with any of the amps in Amir's SINAD top quarter (and don't leave it up to your dealer?!). And SINAD is a blunt metric so it's not like all things considered. You can probably even do top half. No one here needs to choose them for you; you've already declared you hear the differences and can identify between them to pass an ABX. I don't discount there can be differences but whether people can reliably identify them blind and that one will be better with certain speakers than others that are not odd 2ohm and extreme phase outliers, and at all times.... You seem to be in the all amps sound different wagon.

 

[MarkWinston]

Alrighty then - What are YOU waiting for? Do your ABX testing with any of the amps in Amir's SINAD top quarter (and don't leave it up to your dealer?!). And SINAD is a blunt metric so it's not like all things considered. You can probably even do top half. No one here needs to choose them for you; you've already declared you hear the differences and can identify between them to pass an ABX. I don't discount there can be differences but whether people can reliably identify them blind and that one will be better with certain speakers than others that are not odd 2ohm and extreme phase outliers, and at all times.... You seem to be in the all amps sound different wagon.

Ill do it if you name me 2 amps that sound exactly the same in the same price category. You keep yappin about good amps sound the same, so give me 2. Just 2. Or else anything else you say would be irrelevant.

I am declaring that I will do a blind abx test if you give me names of 2 amps that sound exactly the same. Shouldnt be hard. Ill ask help from dealers around here because A. They most probably have the amps on hand B. Because I can.

Top amps from Amir's SINAD charts? You are telling me the top ones in the SINAD chart sound the same??? You have got to be kidding here. I dont even take the SINAD chart as something important, any decent amp with 60 sinad should be great, anything more is just technological masturbation. And they sound the same? Im definitely a 'all amps have their own characteristics' guy. And Im still waiting for you to show me where did I declared I have golden ears. An accusation clearly only dared said behind a keyboard. If you do not show me where I declared I had golden ears, this conversation is as good as over.

 

[Colonel7]

Ill do it if you name me 2 amps that sound exactly the same in the same price category. You keep yappin about good amps sound the same, so give me 2. Just 2. Or else anything else you say would be irrelevant.

Im definitely a 'all amps have their own characteristics' guy. And Im still waiting for you to show me where did I declared I have golden ears.

Didn't I just point you to 30 amps to choose from? And your whole post is a feast of golden ears, particularly these last two sentences. Good luck in your quest!

 

[BostonJack]

Straw man. You are seeking to divert attention from the core issue. The core issue is that differences reliably shown in ABX blind tests are the only differences that are valid.

You made a statement. In post #55, you said, " ... Done that MANY TIMES, even with a switcher. There will always be differences, nothing is perfect in this price range and differences come mainly from the pre/dac side. I have never come across 2 exact similiar sounding amps in a blind test at this price range. In fact Ive never come across any 2 integrated of any price thay sounds the same. ... "

I don't know what you have done "many times", with or without a "switcher", but this description does not fit the description of a blind ABX test. Not only that, but your statement that , " ... then I'll arrange a blind abx test. ...." insinuates that you have not already done so, and that your statements are based on something other than blind ABX testing protocols.

This is further indicated by the phrase, " ... with many dealers ready to play. .... " Dealers do not conduct blind ABX tests. Even if they had the resources and the time, and even if their moral compass was pointing in the right direction, the test would have the taint of dealer participation. IOW, they are not a disinterested party. The results would, on the face of things, be in question.

If, on the other hand, you have participated in valid blind ABX testing, please show us the results. Professional testers routinely give participants a copy of the result, stating the day and time of the test, the DUT and details of equipment used.

Until then, you are simply making unsupported statements. Jim

In an ABX test, what is required to set the levels to a match? (sincere question) A piece of lore that I believe has a kernel of truth is : an SPL difference at the speakers of as little as 0.3 to 0.5 db may be perceived as greater "openness" and not detected as a volume difference.

 

[MarkWinston]

Definite bias.

The purpose of ABX blind tests is to educate the listener. Not to refute the listener, and not to convince the listener. It's to educate the listener, to answer questions that they have, and to clarify situations in which they find themselves. Bias does not figure in to that particular process, and one reason is that blind ABX testing was conceived to REDUCE OR ELIMINATE bias.

It seems that you are attempting to validate your bias. That cannot be done. Not only that, but there is no need to do so. If you're biased, you're biased. I'm biased. Fred is biased. Everyone on earth is biased, albeit regarding different things. There is no shame in it, no stigma. Humans are imperfect. It's the nature of the human race.

However ...... you are attempting to refute scientifically-controlled tests which, as I said, are designed to reduce or eliminate bias.

Not only that, but you are using convoluted logic and rhetoric associated with trolls. The use of such raises doubts about your sincerity, and calls into question your motives.

I believe you know that. Jim

All these words but not a mention of 2 amps that sound exactly the same. I have stated I havent heard of any 2 amps that sound the same, you claim there are and Im asking you to name 2 that sounds exactly the same for the third time now but nothing and you have the audacity to call me a troll?

Here is it in simple english because I dont like playing with words : name me 2 amps that sound exactly the same and Ill test out under all set conditions. Without naming me 2 amps that sounds EXACTLY the same I cant conduct this test with a purpose. Without naming 2 amps that sound EXACTLY the same under clipping levels it would be the same as just randomly choosing any 2 amp and doing a blind test, which I will definitely notice a difference. This test isnt for me to point out which one measures more neutral or accurate or which one is better, ill just have to hear if there is a difference. 5th time Im asking, point me 2 amps that sound exactly the same under clipping levels and I will do the test undee all the set conditions. Do not ask me to test out any random amp from the sinad list like the guy above, as if all the top sinad amps sound the same which is just pure bs.

 

[BDWoody]

In an ABX test, what is required to set the levels to a match? (sincere question) A piece of lore that I believe has a kernel of truth is : an SPL difference at the speakers of as little as 0.3 to 0.5 db may be perceived as greater "openness" and not detected as a volume difference.

I believe a .1 db match is what you're looking for.

point me 2 amps that sound exactly the same under clipping levels and I will do the test undee all the set conditions.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-24#post-550116

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-22#post-548462

This was a well done test, and it goes through the hassle that is required to get it to where it might actually have meaning.

I'm sure you've got a couple amps around...why not see how easy it actually is, rather than how sure you are that it will be.

 

[NTK]

In an ABX test, what is required to set the levels to a match? (sincere question) A piece of lore that I believe has a kernel of truth is : an SPL difference at the speakers of as little as 0.3 to 0.5 db may be perceived as greater "openness" and not detected as a volume difference.

Level matching when testing speakers is actually a complicated problem without (I believe) a definitive solution. Unlike electronics where FR is essentially flat, speakers aren't and they vary differently from each other.

For example, if you use a single point (1 frequency only) level match at 1 kHz, the one that has a peak at 1 kHz will be at a disadvantage to one that has a dip. The one with the peak will sound less loud on average when level matched at 1 kHz. One method is to match their averaged SPL in a frequency range of say, a few hundred hertz to a few kHz. However, our hearing sensitivity isn't flat with frequencies, so this isn't a perfect match either. This will also give a strong advantage to the speaker that has better low frequency extension because the speaker will sound louder too. This may overcome the advantage of the other speakers in other areas (e.g. mid and higher frequencies). Therefore, we may also want to test them with high passed test samples or with subs to "level" the playing field, etc.

 

[MarkWinston]

I believe a .1 db match is what you're looking for.




https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-24#post-550116

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-is-a-myth-why-tubes.8656/page-22#post-548462

This was a well done test, and it goes through the hassle that is required to get it to where it might actually have meaning.

I'm sure you've got a couple amps around...why not see how easy it actually is, rather than how sure you are that it will be.

Any 2 amps? I have a few amps so tat shouldnt be a problem. Whats the best way to level match them accurately? I dont want to do all this and have people telling me after that I level matched them the wrong way. And if it turns out that all good amps sound exactly the same under clipping levels at the exact same volume, Ill just go with the cheapest good amp I can find that will power my speaker sufficiently and call it my endgame. Easier life that way.

 

[BDWoody]

Any 2 amps? I have a few amps so tat shouldnt be a problem. Whats the best way to level match them accurately? I dont want to do all this and have people telling me after that I level matched them the wrong way. And if it turns out that all good amps sound exactly the same under clipping levels at the exact same volume, Ill just go with the cheapest good amp I can find that will power my speaker sufficiently and call it my endgame. Easier life that way.

To avoid the exact issue you state, I would suggest you start a new thread that gets suggestions on the best way to do it, and documents the process for future generations.

You'll get lots of sincere help, and it will likely be followed by many.

Typically a multimeter would be used to measure voltage and match that way, rather than trying to do it with an app or by ear...

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I don't implicitly trust Wikipedia, but this is a fair explanation of the bare-bones basics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

And an interesting video by our inestimable Amir, explaining many of the ins and out of blind testing.

There is also an older thread that discusses some aspects of ABX testing:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ity-and-reliability-of-abx-blind-testing.186/

Jim

 

[MarkS]

I believe it is possible to ABX test amps without level matching IF the volume is turned down to zero between switches, AND the listener then adjusts the volume BY EAR ONLY to preference. This means that the volume control must not offer any visual or tactile feedback that would permit the listener to infer volume level by anything other than the sound.

 

[Chromatischism]

Level matching when testing speakers is actually a complicated problem without (I believe) a definitive solution. Unlike electronics where FR is essentially flat, speakers aren't and they vary differently from each other.

For example, if you use a single point (1 frequency only) level match at 1 kHz, the one that has a peak at 1 kHz will be at a disadvantage to one that has a dip. The one with the peak will sound less loud on average when level matched at 1 kHz. One method is to match their averaged SPL in a frequency range of say, a few hundred hertz to a few kHz. However, our hearing sensitivity isn't flat with frequencies, so this isn't a perfect match either. This will also give a strong advantage to the speaker that has better low frequency extension because the speaker will sound louder too. This may overcome the advantage of the other speakers in other areas (e.g. mid and higher frequencies). Therefore, we may also want to test them with high passed test samples or with subs to "level" the playing field, etc.

When presented with this problem, I have level-matched by ear. It's surprisingly effective. If I level them with my own perceptions, I've removed any overall level bias for me as a listener. And yes, it is a compromise because frequency response varies, but it's the best you can do. Then, this allows you to hear how each speaker has pros and cons in different areas, as it should be.

Note I haven't done this on a speaker with no bass vs one that has lots of bass. If ever ended up in that odd scenario I would just apply a HPF to one of them.

 

[zeppzeppzepp]

Across a number of threads you've declared you've got golden ears and are constantly asking about amp and speaker pairings and synergy. You are also looking to replace speakers you've just bought. Part of the reason for this site is to avoid not only snake oil, but audio purchases always resulting in "the road not traveled" or "the next one to get away." Some people enjoy the constant switching, purchasing, and selling to get the elusive "perfect wave", or maybe just to experience how all of the different products sound and feel to them. If so that's cool but golden ears to many of us is a treadmill of disappointment. Because those who proclaim this need to realize the only way to pursue sound is to try out every product and combination themselves. Trusting measurements and correlating them with your preferences of sound will greatly reduce the universe of choices.

I would give another opinion of the synergy debate.
Though I don't totally agree to neglect the system pairing concept, I suggest not bothered to think synergy for "tonality".

If the audio tonality is not satisfied, just go change the loudspeakers.

I still agree that differences of some aspect of electronic units' pairing can actually be heard, but just don't overly expect the tonal synergy can really works.