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Passive Speaker That Is Most Revealing Under 1000 USD

MarkWinston

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What passive speaker under 1000 bucks is most neutral and detailed to your knowledge? It has to reveal as much flaws in the recording as possible for the money, yet being neutral at the same time. Im not talking about the rest of the chain, just the speaker. Anything in mind?
 

DSJR

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Revealing? ALL half decent speakers 'reveal' what's in the recording, but I suspect the audiophile take on that is a batman-shaped response which can exaggerate details in the mix...

I just don't know. I mean, one presentation type I must hear to see if my Tinnitus gets on better with it is a smaler speaker with the JBL large-waveguide (hiss from the cheap actives won't bother me now, ever ;) ). I'm finding traditional two ways an issue as the often weak dispersion properties tend to deaden the sound too much - no loss of 'detail' just my ears aren't as receptive any more...
 

Beershaun

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napilopez

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My vote is for the Polk r200. Actually seems to fit this bill pretty perfectly. Nearly as neutral as a Genelec coaxial, but with just a bit of extra energy in the top octave or two (nicely tunable with positioning) and a slightly emphasized presence region due to directivity which I thought gave them a slight forwardness to the sound that's noticeable with things like cymbals and brass.

I haven't heard the ELAC DBR62 yet, but based on the measurements I'd guess they are slightly on the 'laid back' side of neutral rather than the more 'revealing' side. They have an overall downward tilt along with a few dips in the response and narrower directivity.

The Focal Chora 806 might also fit the bill nicely for similar reasons to the Polk. Slightly less neutral, wider soundstage.
 

Jim Taylor

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What do you want to do? Do you want these for home studio work? If that's the case, get the Yamaha NS-10 speakers and revel in every imperfection in the recording. (Pun intended). Otherwise, I agree that the Revel M16 speakers are very good yet have a natural sound. (Second pun intended.) Jim
 
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Benedium

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Polk R200's cabinet shape and depth may be somewhat more awkward for placement than dbr62 though. R200 also seems to favour under 15deg off axis while DBR62 seems best pointing straight ahead (30deg off axis?). OK maybe irrelevant haha. Yes i think R200 is more revealing at lower volumes in my room.
 
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MarkS

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What measurment(s) correspond to "revealing"? Low distortion? Narrow dispersion?
 
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MarkWinston

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Thank you all for your answers! Looks like the Polk R200 is a famous choice here, yet I own the Diamond 12.2, they measure nearly the same tonality wise and the Diamonds are not really that revealing. It is neutral though. What measuremens show a speaker is revealing while staying neutral?
 

DSJR

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Quick question - Do you run the Diamonds with grilles on or off? I'm getting confused with different generations here but the 220 were all but destroyed with the tweeter covers on (massive crossover response dip).

The thing I'm having all but beaten into me is that a flat response on axis is as nothing if the lateral dispersion doesn't tail off smoothly. My current speakers have a crossover dip AND suckouts off axis and in this room with my ears as they are currently it shows and makes me not want to play music through them, so I do understand (some crude as hell early '70's IMF Compacts with Elac 6" doped bass and mid cones plus EMI cone tweeter brought in very high which would be annihilated here worse than any ATC ;) communicate the 'presence region' superbly with clarity and voice enunciation far better to me as the mid unit here is run wide open up top and with a series 35uF cap to stop bass getting to it - bass driver has an inductor to take it out in the lower midrange)

DSCF0088 avatar.JPG


I do wish you luck. Can you try to include some JBL's as well, as the large-waveguide models may well give a more 'explicit' way of reproducing music. Their passive models in general have never 'held back' in communication terms - just a thought....
 
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MarkWinston

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Quick question - Do you run the Diamonds with grilles on or off? I'm getting confused with different generations here but the 220 were all but destroyed with the tweeter covers on (massive crossover response dip).

The thing I'm having all but beaten into me is that a flat response on axis is as nothing if the lateral dispersion doesn't tail off smoothly. My current speakers have a crossover dip AND suckouts off axis and in this room with my ears as they are currently it shows and makes me not want to play music through them, so I do understand (some crude as hell early '70's IMF Compacts with Elac 6" doped bass and mid cones plus EMI cone tweeter brought in very high which would be annihilated here worse than any ATC ;) communicate the 'presence region' superbly with clarity and voice enunciation far better to me as the mid unit here is run wide open up top and with a series 35uF cap to stop bass getting to it - bass driver has an inductor to take it out in the lower midrange)

View attachment 152840

I do wish you luck. Can you try to include some JBL's as well, as the large-waveguide models may well give a more 'explicit' way of reproducing music. Their passive models in general have never 'held back' in communication terms - just a thought....
My guess is all diamonds measure more correctly with grills off, it can be said for most speakers Ive come across unless they are made to be run with grills on. Ive had a pair of speakers that sound overly bright with grills off and sure enough it measures real bright even at 30 degrees off axis.
 

napilopez

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Polk R200's cabinet shape and depth may be somewhat more awkward for placement than dbr62 though. R200 also seems to favour under 15deg off axis while DBR62 seems best pointing straight ahead (30deg off axis?).

Both speakers are flattest roughly around 20 degrees off axis, but you should be able to angle them as you please. The R200 is indeed an unusually deep speaker though, 14 vs 10 inches or so.

What measurment(s) correspond to "revealing"? Low distortion? Narrow dispersion?

Certainly a vague term, as with most audio language, but i generally associate revealing with a speaker that is neutral, has at least some frequencies exaggerated, and or has a slight upwards tilt.

I'm not sure how much dispersion with correlates with being revealing. Often narrower dispersion speakers are described as such but I'm not fully convinced narrow directivity speakers will sound more revealing than wide directivity in a given room.

Theoretically, quieter reflections with narrow directivity means you get more of just what's on the recording. On the other hand, reflections can also make certain flaws more audible by serving as 'repetitions' of a peaks in the recording. So they're probably revealing in different ways.

In general though I don't really like the term. Unless a speaker is just very dark overall or straight up bad, different speakers will be revealing of different things.

Thank you all for your answers! Looks like the Polk R200 is a famous choice here, yet I own the Diamond 12.2, they measure nearly the same tonality wise and the Diamonds are not really that revealing. It is neutral though. What measuremens show a speaker is revealing while staying neutral?

I believe you're referring to the hifi-voice measurements mentioned in another thread? Sorry but those basic in-room measurements are not valid to make reliable assessments for these subtle differences.

If you start with a perfectly flat speaker and give it just a 1-2dB tilt upward, it will sound totally different and much brighter than speaker with just a 1-2dB tilt downward. You need anechoic or quasi-anechoic data unless the differences are completely over the top.

I'd say what you're looking for is a flattish speaker with slightly emphasized upper frequencies, whether within the listening window response or directivity characteristics.

Fixing in-room bass can also go a long way toward making a speaker more revealing
 
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MarkWinston

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Both speakers are flattest roughly around 20 degrees off axis, but you should be able to angle them as you please. The R200 is indeed an unusually deep speaker though, 14 vs 10 inches or so.



Certainly a vague term, as with most audio language, but i generally associate revealing with a speaker that is neutral, has at least some frequencies exaggerated, and or has a slight upwards tilt.

I'm not sure how much dispersion with correlates with being revealing. Often narrower dispersion speakers are described as such but I'm not fully convinced narrow directivity speakers will sound more revealing than wide directivity in a given room.

Theoretically, quieter reflections with narrow directivity means you get more of just what's on the recording. On the other hand, reflections can also make certain flaws more audible by serving as 'repetitions' of a peaks in the recording. So they're probably revealing in different ways.

In general though I don't really like the term. Unless a speaker is just very dark overall or straight up bad, different speakers will be revealing of different things.



I believe you're referring to the hifi-voice measurements mentioned in another thread? Sorry but those basic in-room measurements are not valid to make reliable assessments for these subtle differences.

If you start with a perfectly flat speaker and give it just a 1-2dB tilt upward, it will sound totally different and much brighter than speaker with just a 1-2dB tilt downward. You need anechoic or quasi-anechoic data unless the differences are completely over the top.

I'd say what you're looking for is a flattish speaker with slightly emphasized upper frequencies, whether within the listening window response or directivity characteristics.

Fixing in-room bass can also go a long way toward making a speaker more revealing
We will just have to wait for someone to do a 'real' measurement for the Diamond 12.2s because until now, what we have around are only room measurements and they all show rather the same trend; flat with a slight bbc dip and rolled off from 17k. If you could point me the way to a klippel/anechoic meaurement that would be great because Im dying to see it myself. Ive searched for a very long time but I dont seem to find any. Maybe I missed it or they are in some other languages. Have you happened to come across any? But for now, crappy room measurements are all we have.
 
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napilopez

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We will just have to wait for someone to do a 'real' measurement for the Diamond 12.2s because until now, what we have around are only room measurements and they all show rather the same trend; flat with a slight bbc dip and rolled off from 17k. If you could point me the way to a klippel/anechoic meaurement that would be great because Im dying to see it myself. Ive searched for a very long time but I dont seem to find any. Maybe I missed it or they are in some other languages. Have you happened to come across any? But for now, crappy room measurements are all we have.

For sure, that's what I was getting at. I was just implying you can't make an impression of what R200s would sound like based off measurements of the Wharfdale because we just don't have any high quality measurements of it. In general there are very few in-room measurements I would trust to say much useful about a speakers tonality. The ones at hifi-voice can tell you if a speaker is totally bonkers, but won't be much help assessing quality beyond 'acceptable.'

That isnt neutral if there is a bump.
I mean, pretty much no speaker is perfectly neutral. There can be some deviations from flat as long as it's nothing outlandish. A treble bump around 5kHz, whether in FR or directivity, would indeed likely make a speaker sound 'more revealing' in many cases. It could also make it sound harsh. Just depends on how much.



Likewise not very useful. It's very low resolution. not just the image, but the measurements themselves; 1/3rd of an octave, when it should be at least 1/12 of an octave. It also doesn't seem they are quasi-anechoic, given the dips and peaks in the bass response. In any case, there's a dip in the upper midrange which doesn't bode well for a 'revealing' sound.

It seems partly in room given the woofer response shown, but there's also a nearfield port measurement in there, so it's a little confusing.
 

Chromatischism

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Requirements aren't clear. Do you want revealing or do you want neutral?

"Most revealing" = not neutral
 
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