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EQ'ing speakers is an interesting topic, no doubt.
Dr Sean Olive mentioned EQ'ing speakers at 1hr 08min 47sec
From the video:
I don't know enough how either @pierre or @Maiky76 's algorithm for coming up with PEQ's for a speaker works.
Do these EQ algorithms take Dr Sean Olive's statement above into account? Anyone know?
As usual really nice work and extremely useful buying guide, @sweetchaos This is a great compliment to your subwoofer guide.
I had a few ideas. Can you plot the prices of the recommended speakers against their preference scores (scatter plot)? You get an idea of how much more $$$ buys in preference score.
Also, I wonder if small differences in preference scores should be squelched. I suspect there is some amount of measurement error from run-to-run on the Kippel (see Erins vs Amir's measurements). Also, I believe that Dr. Olive has mentioned that some amount of difference in preference score not meaningful (I believe it is 1 but I can't find the reference). For example, if ratings are within 0.5 they receive a tie (Both #1 or all tied). This would result in 3 speakers being recommended, but in no particular order. The reason I recommend this is because someone might have bought a #2 in your recommendations. Then they lament they bought #2 which was 0.2 lower than the top spot. Not a meaningful difference, but it doesn't appear that way in the spreadsheet. They should not go out and spend thousands of dollars for an "upgrade". People can't hear the difference between speakers that close. Splitting speakers this way accidentally affirms people's notion they can hear the difference. (These sort of posts pop up regularly like "I have X great speaker, should I buy Y good speaker?").
I'm assuming you mean "if the playback level was the same, *and at a level both can handle without distorting and compressing*"?
Even under those conditions, I can't totally agree. The 8361 controls directivity much lower, and thus these two speakers have very different midbass dispersion widths.
Even at a level the KH80 can handle with no compression or distortion(76dB, example), I would still expect it's midbass to sound noticeably different.
Thanks, this project was my first attempt at an recommendation system, based on all the data we have (from Amir, Erin, and elsewhere).
To tackle your questions.
1. Regarding a scatter plot.
Here's the current speaker index's scatter plot:
I think it's hard to see the bottom values, which are obviously the best preference scores at the lowest prices.
Yes, if you narrow down by price, that helps a lot.
But it still takes several minutes to look at each point by mouse over.
Kind of inefficient, I think.
2. My current list shows:
My list isn't exactly "Buy this #1 spot speaker, instead of #2 spot", but more of a "Based on the best available information we have, these are the best-ranked speakers".
One way I can help is to create another list, with something like:
If preference score between 7.0 to 7.9, get A rank.
If preference score between 6.0 to 6.9, get B rank.
If preference score between 5.0 to 5.9, get C rank.
If preference score between 4.0 to 4.9, get D rank.
If preference score between 3.0 to 3.9, get E rank.
That way, a person can look at all "B rank" speakers at once, instead of focusing on the preference score list.
Some people will like to look at the preference list, and some will like the "B rank" list.
3. Regarding accuracy of preference score.
The preference score of a non-NFS spinorama is certainly higher than a NFS spinorama, since the accuracy of NFS is more precise and less-smoothed.
The only issue is that I don't know by how much.
This is solved with "B rank" lists I mentioned above.
4. I have X speakers, should I buy Y speakers?
That's an interesting problem to solve.
It involves knowing what speakers the user has and whether we have preference score or not for these speakers.
My current list doesn't:
- discontinued speakers or speakers not sold in the USA (total of 132 speakers so far)
- other speakers that we don't have spinorama for (thousands to tens of thousands )
The only way I can think of, is to create a "speaker recommendations" spreadsheet, similar to my "subwoofer comparison" when I have a huge list of speakers, including all of the categories above.
Then create statistical representation of various speaker manufacturers, to see what the average preference score is.
With enough data, we can say things like "Avoid Edifiers, since their average preference score is 3.7 (based on 3 data points)".
If you have an Edifier speaker, you're likely to experience an upgrade if the preference score of the speaker you're thinking of buying is above 4.0, or if the speaker is categorized as a "Rank D and higher".
Without a spreadsheet to do the number crunching, this type of recommendation isn't possible.
It's actually even worse than that because NFS data can vary by number of points measured relative to how difficult the soundfield is to capture, lol. And this has actually mattered -- the 8351B used 1000 points, the 8361A not specified(but probably 1k?), and the 8341A only 700 points.
But yeah. 1 std dev in the model is 0.8 points. That's really the smallest increment people should be using to mean some significant difference. Anything below 0.5 is *definitely* within margin of error for the whole thing.
All speakers distort at all frequencies at any SPL above 0. There is no good reason to believe either of those 2 speakers is producing audible distortion that would have a significant impact on how their mid-bass is perceived. I'm not saying it's not the case, just that it's not possible to definitively say so with the current knowledge on the topic.
Compression is irrelevant if the playblack level across all frequencies is identical.
Even under those conditions, I can't totally agree. The 8361 controls directivity much lower, and thus these two speakers have very different midbass dispersion widths.
I'm not sure what definition of 'mid-bass' you're subscribing to, but both speakers are omnidirectional from 60-140 Hz.
You posted the vertical IsoBand for the 8361A. Here's the horizontal:
I’ve thought about a speaker recommendation app ever since the amount of reviews got unmanageable in a detailed comparison spreadsheet.
I think what @sweetchaos had done so far is great and I used his spreadsheet when picking a sub.
If we want a scalable solution, we would need to have something like a vehicle configuration on a car website. Another example is a booking system for hotels. Something that guides you through steps and filters.
Broad steps could be bookshelf or towers. Passive or active and so on. Smaller filters could be price, size, preference score and so on. I know this is not easy as a database would need to be created and then the app layer. Then as new speakers are added to the db, they will come up in the selection.
For the short term, I think a Google sheet is best. Just like the subwoofer one.
This is the Kef R3, the best measuring passive bookshelf speaker.
LEGEND:
Value
Description
#1
Best rated-speaker in terms of preference score.
#2
2nd best-rated speaker in terms of preference score.
#3
3rd best-rated speaker in terms of preference score.
PS
Preference Score (with no subwoofer added). Value can be negative (for really badly designed speakers) and goes up to a 10 (theoretical limit). Higher is better.
LFX
Low Frequency Extension (in hz). This is the bass output at -6db point. This was computed, not estimated. Lower is better.
*
We have quasi-anechoic spinorama or similar. However, this speaker wasn't measured using Klippel NFS (that Amir and Erin have), so it's resolution is less accurate. Warning: This will artificially boost the preference score higher than if the same speaker was measured using NFS.
** No spinorama for Revel Ultima2 Gem2. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel bookshelf speakers (M16, M105, M106, M126Be) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Revel Ultima2 Gem2. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel bookshelf speakers (M16, M105, M106, M126Be) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
End of Bookshelves
---------------------------------------------
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
** No spinorama for Kef R7. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Kef R11. I'm including it because we have Kef R3, R5 spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these are better.
** No spinorama for Revel F36. I'm including it because we have multiple Revel tower speakers (F35, F226Be, F228Be, F206, F208, Ultima2 Studio2) spinorama already, so it's not a stretch to imagine these will be good.
End of Towers
---------------------------------------------
Center Channel Speakers: Highlighted in RED => 2-way center designs will have terrible horizontal directivity, meaning anyone else sitting on the couch next to you will have a bad time, while you're having a good time. In other words, a 2-way center channel is for the money seat, directly in front of the tweeter. If you have multiple people listening, get a 3-way center instead, which won't have these narrow horizontal directivity issues. Once more 3-way speakers get tested, I'll probably separate into 2 tables (best 2-way and best 3-way).
End of Center Channel.
---------------------------------------------
Brand new and untouched, single KEF R3 in walnut color. They're only sold in pairs and I needed one for a center channel. $950 shipped. No games or surprises. I've bought and sold tons of gear on AVS.
Long time listener, first time caller.
I suppose i have been the same issue as many visitors and members of this forum, as i cannot find any of the aforementioned Infinity speakers anywhere (RC263 and R263). I also browsed the net to see if they are out of business or if products are being discontinued but could not get a straight answer. Hence why i am wondering if anybody knows what is happening with their product line and/or if it is linked the supply chain issues a lot of firms seem to be having.
It’s hard to tell, especially these days. I see what you mean, looking at their web site, but sometimes stuff is just sold out, then they do a run of product, and it’s available again for a time. There are some speakers and amplifiers currently available that are intended for use in a car or boat. There’s even a small 4-channel amp that has built-in DSP!
They do have some other items available under the Infinity brand, like accessory chargers for your phone. Seems like a weird product line to market under the Infinity name, but hey, they own the name, they can do what they want.
For years the pattern has been that there are gaps that can run many months long between Infinity Reference speakers selling out and being restocked. In the past there has always been speculation that they are permanently out of production only to see them reappear, first selling at MSRP and later being offered at deep discount.
Long time listener, first time caller.
I suppose i have been the same issue as many visitors and members of this forum, as i cannot find any of the aforementioned Infinity speakers anywhere (RC263 and R263). I also browsed the net to see if they are out of business or if products are being discontinued but could not get a straight answer. Hence why i am wondering if anybody knows what is happening with their product line and/or if it is linked the supply chain issues a lot of firms seem to be having.
HARMAN International is a global leader in connected car technology, lifestyle audio innovations, design and analytics, cloud services and IoT solutions.
Car audio and headphones and cell phones are huge market. Home audio peaked around 1970-80s.
I’d like to see Erin and Amir to collaborate with all those Youtuber/Influencers doing the car reviews. And get Klippel to build a mobile unit for measuring inside the car. One with engine off, and one doing the standard EPA cycle on the dyno (start/idle, accelerate, cruise, decelerate stop)
I mean, going from 0-60mph in 3 seconds flat is fun as well as your 1/4 mile time, but what most people are going in their cars is being stuck in traffic listening to their tunes.
You aren’t a true audio nut until you buy a car based on the stereo.
Is the Lexus stock sound system is better than the Mercedes stock sound system. And which model?
Should I spring for the AMG C63 S with the Burmester co-branded rig…
And get Klippel to build a mobile unit for measuring inside the car. One with engine off, and one doing the standard EPA cycle on the dyno (start/idle, accelerate, cruise, decelerate stop)
For a car you don't want a Klippel. It is easier to measure in a car because the actual response at the listening position is what you want to measure. The whole point of the Klippel is to make an anechoic measurement when you can't have an anechoic environment. Car audio is tuned for the cabin gain provided by the vehicle interior, so measuring the actual freq response, distortion and decay with something like a UMIK would be the most practical method. You may need to put a dummy in the drivers seat to absorb the right amount of energy.
I feel like making a thread of speaker recommendations per price point is exactly what the preference score shouldn't be used for. The olive score only reflects the linearity of tonality. It is worth pointing out some of the ideas not captured which can impact purchasing decisions: output capability, wide vs. narrow dispersion, resonances/distortion, tradeoff of tonality vs. extension in low-end freq response, sacrificing on-axis response to target PIR or listening window. Someone has already commented that the best <$2000 speaker is only $400 - not understanding that this is only a tonality measure while many speakers in the $2000 price bracket have much much more output.
If there is one number which I would like to see added to these speaker comparisons, it would be something like max SPL with distortion <3% (or 5%?) from 100 Hz+ (perhaps defined up to 10 kHz). This would capture how much output capacity is available before the speaker falls apart.
If there was a second number I would like to see, it would be horizontal wideness of the -6 dB point averaged from 500 Hz to 5 kHz. This would categorize wide vs. narrow speakers. Harmon, who developed the preference score, seems to believe that wider speakers are preferred/better. The olive score does not reflect an opinion on wide vs. narrow speakers. Certainly narrower speakers would seem to cast darker if listened to in far field but can have less interactions in problematic rooms.
Resonances are harder to quantify. But Erin and Amir often note that they can hear certain resonances which can be seen in the spectral decay. These often but not always impact the pref score and their impact to the pref score seems to understate how much they are disliked.
Hi.
At the moment I have Edifier R2730db(tri-amp, 6.5", 4", 3/4", ~210$), which used on my desktop, and I'm thinking about replacing.
Is it worth to change them to Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 + ncore clone amp? As I see, it has not a big woofer. Is it capable of reproducing the sound of bass guitar, cello and drums(low frequencies, ~40 Hz, whcih can be felt by the body) with good quality?(musical preferences - doom metal, hard rock, classical music)
PS: in my region it is impossible to test before buying. Possibly exists less expensive(even active).
Thanks.
Improvements:
- Separated 2-way vs 3-way center channels.
- Added example of use cases for both 2-way and 3-way center channels.
- Added Revel C25 to list.
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