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Passive coaxial hifi speakers

Not genelec studio monitor

Hifi speakers :)

Remember that many records are also not flat again because flat is borring (reminmds me of a women) like Bob James Feel Like Making LIVE!

Wonderfull sound and music
Ignoring your casual sexism, you're both completely wrong and at odds with the ethos of this entire forum. But most simply, if you prefer colored sound, it's still best to start with flat, neutral, great-measuring loudspeakers, since it's trivial to color them any which way you like. The reverse, however, is not true--if you start with colored speakers, you're stuck with that color or locked into the futile cycle of trying to compensate for it.
 
you know like a flat,neutral sounding speaker

One album i have heard mention being a neutral sound album is peter gabriel's So
 
What particularly you find ´more advanced´ in these designs?

I am by no means speaking in favor of really wide directivity of a coaxial design. I was more referring to the slightly wider radiation angle of the TAD Be coax in the aforementioned frequency band because it perfectly matches the neighboring band´s directivity. A smaller, steeper cone shape inevitably leads to wider radiation at lower frequencies and narrower directivity the more the tweeter kicks it, which is by definition imbalanced directivity, which I would not recommend.
Several things, more modern magnetic flux designs leading to lower non-linearities, smoother geometries with less edges leading to lower diffraction/directivity issues like the one you mentioned above.

If you write your preference of such a twice kinked directivity function and a continuously increasing one as wrong it doesn't make it a definition. Also their directivities are less different than you think and both the on-axis and off-axis sound of the TAD is even in your preferred region more coloured/less constant:

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more modern magnetic flux designs leading to lower non-linearities, smoother geometries with less edges leading to lower diffraction/directivity issues like the one you mentioned above.

Don´t disagree when it comes down to technical details like magnetic flux, but that does not necessarily translate to different sound quality.

Regarding less edges I tend to look at the whole concept and the acoustic result, not the visual approach of the baffle (which I find quite edgy in KEF Reference and R series btw).

The issue I mentioned was not related to diffraction or baffle geometry, but rather a phenomenon resulting from tweeter diaphragm size and how it is integrated in the midrange voicecoil. It is mildly visible in your graph above 10K and according to my experience negligible if you reduce toe-in of the speaker a little bite. Driver design is a matter of compromise and trade-offs, and I would certainly accept this one rather than broad-banded directivity imbalances.

If you write your preference of such a twice kinked directivity function and a continuously increasing one as wrong it doesn't make it a definition.

I am not aware of any acoustic definition of ´twice kinked´. My aim is to keep directivity as constant as possible in the freq bands which are most localizable by our brain. For the simple reason we can perceive reverb tonality in these bands, and octave-broad (or broader) bands being several Decibels louder or attenuated compared to their neighboring bands, is defined as audible coloration. So even if it might look like a kinked line on the graph, the result is a better tonal balance of the reverb. ´Kinks´ outside this range I consider to be rather unimportant as they can be equalized in most of cases (if there is not ridiculous change in directivity, of course).

their directivities are less different than you think

Quite different in the bands I was referring to, I would say. In particular I mean how the octave-broad bands from like 800Hz upwards compare to their neighboring ones.

On-axis behavior is a different thing. And while I don't deny its importance, I am not paying such attention to it as it anyways have to be corrected in a specific room. An imbalance in the reverb field, after achieving flat on-axis response, is usually not correctible as both are linked to each other in a static way.
 
Don´t disagree when it comes down to technical details like magnetic flux, but that does not necessarily translate to different sound quality.
Measurably it does, if/when/how audible those are is a different issue.

Regarding less edges I tend to look at the whole concept and the acoustic result, not the visual approach of the baffle (which I find quite edgy in KEF Reference and R series btw).
No, I meant just the driver geometry like for example the surrounds, of course the total baffle matters too and there the TOTL KEF and Genelec are also smoother.

I am not aware of any acoustic definition of ´twice kinked´.
It is not acoustic, just about the form of the off-axis responses.

For the simple reason we can perceive reverb tonality in these bands, and octave-broad (or broader) bands being several Decibels louder or attenuated compared to their neighboring bands, is defined as audible coloration.
As I have shown above the TAD has larger deviations in those bands.

Quite different in the bands I was referring to, I would say. In particular I mean how the octave-broad bands from like 800Hz upwards compare to their neighboring ones.

On-axis behavior is a different thing. And while I don't deny its importance, I am not paying such attention to it as it anyways have to be corrected in a specific room. An imbalance in the reverb field, after achieving flat on-axis response, is usually not correctible as both are linked to each other in a static way.
I didn't write only on-axis but also showed its sound power issues.
 
I didn't write only on-axis but also showed its sound power issues.

Don´t see any major deviations between direct sound and assorted averaged windows of indirect sound. If all components are more or less of equal tonal balance, it is easy to apply DSP. Same with uneven behavior below or above the localizable frequency bands.

Did you try to apply DSP, and what was the result in the listening test?

It is not acoustic, just about the form of the off-axis responses.

Tbh, I do not care for ´form´ or any sort of virtual straight line as an ideal. This is meaningless, if it does not translate to a desired sound character. I agree with you that very uneven alternating directivity, such as a wide radiation pattern of a tweeter following a very narrow midrange one, is to be avoided. But for the rest, I mostly care about tonality and timbre of the reverb which is defined as the relative level of harmonics to their fundamentals. A lack of brillance of several decibels leads to midrange-heavy reverb, no matter how continuously the higher frequencies´ level is declining. Colorated is colorated.

I don´t have any issues with people preferring a subjectively colorated sound. I just don't understand why colorated off-axis behavior should be seen as a reference and ideal, and where the theory behind it comes from. It defies very basic common understanding of acoustics to proclaim that colorated reverb is always preferred. And no experiment I am aware of, confirms this, the only one quoted seems to be a comparison of direct-radiating speakers vs. hybrid horns made by Toole/Olive decades ago.
 
This is another typical thread on ASR: Someone writes that he would like to have a look at some passive coaxial loudspeakers and two pages later you are back to the eternally recurring and always similar basic discussions with the same constant references to linearity, dispersion behavior, subjectivity vs. objective measurements

Nothing wrong, but terribly predictable and boring.
 
This is another typical thread on ASR: Someone writes that he would like to have a look at some passive coaxial loudspeakers and two pages later you are back to the eternally recurring and always similar basic discussions with the same constant references to linearity, dispersion behavior, subjectivity vs. objective measurements

Nothing wrong, but terribly predictable and boring.
It was a productive thread listing options and discussing performance, until OP sprung "measurements don't matter" on us with a bad car analogy.

Many ASR members (understandably) cannot let that stand undisputed, but yeah I agree. A quick debunk then back on topic is preferable.
 
Don´t see any major deviations between direct sound and assorted averaged windows of indirect sound. If all components are more or less of equal tonal balance, it is easy to apply DSP. Same with uneven behavior below or above the localizable frequency bands.

Did you try to apply DSP, and what was the result in the listening test?
I don't see major directivity differences between those two loudspeakers like you claim just that the TAD is more coloured on and off axis without DSP which is quite a joke at that price. Did you see apply DSP, if yes, am sure you have the measurements of that setup.

Tbh, I do not care for ´form´ or any sort of virtual straight line as an ideal. This is meaningless, if it does not translate to a desired sound character. I agree with you that very uneven alternating directivity, such as a wide radiation pattern of a tweeter following a very narrow midrange one, is to be avoided. But for the rest, I mostly care about tonality and timbre of the reverb which is defined as the relative level of harmonics to their fundamentals. A lack of brillance of several decibels leads to midrange-heavy reverb, no matter how continuously the higher frequencies´ level is declining. Colorated is colorated.
Which I rather showed on the TAD.

I don´t have any issues with people preferring a subjectively colorated sound. I just don't understand why colorated off-axis behavior should be seen as a reference and ideal, and where the theory behind it comes from. It defies very basic common understanding of acoustics to proclaim that colorated reverb is always preferred. And no experiment I am aware of, confirms this, the only one quoted seems to be a comparison of direct-radiating speakers vs. hybrid horns made by Toole/Olive decades ago.
Its tiresome to define a specific behaviour or directivity as coloured while another also deviating from the CD behaviour as not. Also at least there is a documented experiment which showed that specific preference while for the opposite one there seems to be none till now.
 
A Reckhorn speaker with an inverted coax design.

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An easy-to-install SEAS coax Kit with an interesting membrane material.

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If I were to buy a coax that doesn't come from the PA corner, it would probably be this one.
Obviously not for the person posting the thread, because you still have to develop the crossover yourself and calculate and create the enclosure yourself, but I think it's very good.

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I don't see major directivity differences between those two loudspeakers like you claim

Maybe you should not try to see but to listen. There is a lot to see once you have an idea how directivity translates to reverb tonality.

Have you made an A/B comparison of the two with proper room correction? I have, admittingly of the floorstander TAD and the non-Meta Blade. It is pretty interesting, and does not support the claim that colorated indirect sound is preferable. Rather the opposite.

Also at least there is a documented experiment which showed that specific preference while for the opposite one there seems to be none till now.

I have been taking part in such experiments, otherwise I would not claim that it was confirmed by controlled experiments. If nothing of that sort has been published, well, that is not within my responsibility but of the scientific institutions involved.

As it is pretty uncommon to publish such results, it is no surprise that no results have been shown supporting the claim that colorated reverb is preferred. As we all know, the only manufacturer-owned institution which has been operating in that field, had not doing loudspeaker comparisons for more than a decade anymore and has been discontinued eventually. So maybe it is time to stop the repetitive call for controlled published results which no-one can deliver.
 
Not genelec studio monitor

Hifi speakers :)

Remember that many records are also not flat again because flat is borring
Just to show you how wrong you are, here is the in-room response for Kef R3 Meta and a Genelec 8030C. Please tell us which is which?

1753981285555.png
 
Please tell us which is which?

That is an easy one, as the 2-way design is recognizable by its characteristic sudden drop in off-axis energy due to lobing (dashed red line around 2K). Might look negligible on the calculated in-room graph, but is usually audible if the room is not overdamped.

Needless to say that both variants indicate a coloration problem of the indirect soundfield in the listening room. Which may ironically result in a midrange-heavy reverb perception, dull tonality and subjectively boring sound. More or less flat in-room response would be in contrary almost certainly perceived as ´more fun´.
 
Have you made an A/B comparison of the two with proper room correction? I have, admittingly of the floorstander TAD and the non-Meta Blade. It is pretty interesting, and does not support the claim that colorated indirect sound is preferable. Rather the opposite.
But you can clearly see their directivities are very similar.

I have been taking part in such experiments, otherwise I would not claim that it was confirmed by controlled experiments. If nothing of that sort has been published, well, that is not within my responsibility but of the scientific institutions involved.

As it is pretty uncommon to publish such results, it is no surprise that no results have been shown supporting the claim that colorated reverb is preferred. As we all know, the only manufacturer-owned institution which has been operating in that field, had not doing loudspeaker comparisons for more than a decade anymore and has been discontinued eventually. So maybe it is time to stop the repetitive call for controlled published results which no-one can deliver.
Why nobody can deliver, I am working in science and science is done and funded to publish results, if that is not the case that causes big questions of the truth or the seriousness
of such. Till anybody can show any proof of such its funny to want ignore previous results just on anecdotal claims, that is not how science operates.
 
More or less flat in-room response would be in contrary almost certainly perceived as ´more fun´.

Not sure if I am misunderstanding you here, but a flat in-room response will almost certainly sound too thin. I assume we are here talking about a living room situation, not nearfield studio.
 
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