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Passive Amplifier Question — Phono Passive to Linn Klout

Lammie

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I have been running a purely analogue amplification setup—a Linn Kairn Pre to Linn Klout Amp (driving a pair of Linn 140s).

The amplification combo were hand-me downs and I have thoroughly enjoyed the sound from the setup. The Klout is a beautiful beast. My two sources have been a turntable via a Cambridge 551P phono stage on the digital side an AppleTV for Apple Music/Airplay/Bluetooth. The AppleTV connects to the Kairn via headphone-out on my TV.

I briefly borrowed a Linn Sneaky network player. However I hardly used it due the average user interface and the requisite amount of faffing around with a network, NAS, etc. Apple Music/AppleTV gave a user experience and access to music that outweighed the audio benefits of the Sneaky system.

I've long realised the weak point in the system is the embarrassing use of the DAC via the TV. I had been eyeing off the PS Audio Stella Gain DAC. It has all the inputs I need (USB, COAX, HDMI, etc) and looked like it would suitably replace the Kairn. In my research into this DAC/Pre I came across this site which immediately changed my mind on the product.

Instead, after reading through the reviews here on ASR, I have purchased a Topping D50s which runs utterly beautifully with the Klout. Everything sounds cleaner, clearer, more defined. It is quite simply better than I could have imagined. So thanks to ASR for the hot tip!

Ok, that was a long intro...

Now that the digital side is literally singing, I'm stuck as to how to get my turntable back into the system.

I'm considering a Schiit SYS to switch between the D50s and phono (and allow attenuation for the phono). But all this talk about input/output impedance has me thoroughly confused.

My question is: would a Cambridge Audio 551P Phono > Schiit SYS > Linn Klout work ok? Am I going to get sufficient volume from this setup?

FYI the Klout has input impedance of 5k ohms.

Alternatively I could look towards a phono stage with a digital out (making use of the COAX on the D50s) —however the simplicity of a passive setup appeals to me.

Open to any suggestions.
 

Wombat

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I am trying to figure out what a passive amplifier is.

If you mean the Schitt SYS it is an attenuator - no amplification. It can only reduce its incoming signal.

It doesn't help when audio companies misuse terminology.

Addressing your question:

Impedance: 551P into SYS(Zin=10kOhm) is OK; SYS(Zout up to 5Ohm) into Klout((Zin=5kOhm) is OK.

Voltage gain of Klout=28.5dB. Assuming max. output of THE SYS is the same 300mv of the 551P the output voltage of the Klout is 8 volt.

This gives 8watt power out.

To get rated 80W @ 8 Ohm the output voltage of the Klout needs to be 25.3 volt. Thus the input voltage needs to be nearly 1 volt.

You need a preamplifier to fully drive the Klout to rated output.
 
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Lammie

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Yes, correct—thank you for requesting clarification.

Passive Amplifier = Attenuator/Volume Control.

What I'm getting at is basically an attenuator/switch that I can put between the DAC and the phono stage so I can control the volume of the turntable, while easily switching between the TT and the DAC/Pre.
 

Xulonn

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Although the phrase "passive amplifier" is definitely an oxymoron, the definition of pre-amplifier can be confusing.
If one treats "preamplifier" as simply a device that "manipulates" an audio signal just prior (pre) to entering the inputs of an amplifier, but not necessarily adding voltage or current gain, then the "amplifier' in preamplifier does not imply amplification of the signal. A preamplifier can then be either "active" or "passive", e.g., either adding, or not adding, gain. That seems to be the definition most people in audio accept.

Unfortunately for those who use the above definition, it is not the "proper one" as defined by dictionaries. I checked several, and they all define a preamplifier as "An electronic circuit or device that detects and strengthens weak signals, as from a radio receiver, for subsequent, more powerful amplification stages."

Based on the dictionary definition, "passive preamplifier" is as much of an oxymoron as "passive amplifier."

I see no resolution to this conundrum in the world of audio gear. LINK
 

Wombat

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Although the phrase "passive amplifier" is definitely an oxymoron, the definition of pre-amplifier can be confusing.
If one treats "preamplifier" as simply a device that "manipulates" an audio signal just prior (pre) to entering the inputs of an amplifier, but not necessarily adding voltage or current gain, then the "amplifier' in preamplifier does not imply amplification of the signal. A preamplifier can then be either "active" or "passive", e.g., either adding, or not adding, gain. That seems to be the definition most people in audio accept.

Unfortunately for those who use the above definition, it is not the "proper one" as defined by dictionaries. I checked several, and they all define a preamplifier as "An electronic circuit or device that detects and strengthens weak signals, as from a radio receiver, for subsequent, more powerful amplification stages."

Based on the dictionary definition, "passive preamplifier" is as much of an oxymoron as "passive amplifier."

I see no resolution to this conundrum in the world of audio gear. LINK

I have always understood that a preamplifier is a device that amplifies lower level signal voltage up to line level.
 
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Rja4000

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I have been running a purely analogue amplification setup—a Linn Kairn Pre to Linn Klout Amp (driving a pair of Linn 140s).

The amplification combo were hand-me downs and I have thoroughly enjoyed the sound from the setup. The Klout is a beautiful beast. My two sources have been a turntable via a Cambridge 551P phono stage on the digital side an AppleTV for Apple Music/Airplay/Bluetooth. The AppleTV connects to the Kairn via headphone-out on my TV.

I briefly borrowed a Linn Sneaky network player. However I hardly used it due the average user interface and the requisite amount of faffing around with a network, NAS, etc. Apple Music/AppleTV gave a user experience and access to music that outweighed the audio benefits of the Sneaky system.

I've long realised the weak point in the system is the embarrassing use of the DAC via the TV. I had been eyeing off the PS Audio Stella Gain DAC. It has all the inputs I need (USB, COAX, HDMI, etc) and looked like it would suitably replace the Kairn. In my research into this DAC/Pre I came across this site which immediately changed my mind on the product.

Instead, after reading through the reviews here on ASR, I have purchased a Topping D50s which runs utterly beautifully with the Klout. Everything sounds cleaner, clearer, more defined. It is quite simply better than I could have imagined. So thanks to ASR for the hot tip!

Ok, that was a long intro...

Now that the digital side is literally singing, I'm stuck as to how to get my turntable back into the system.

I'm considering a Schiit SYS to switch between the D50s and phono (and allow attenuation for the phono). But all this talk about input/output impedance has me thoroughly confused.

My question is: would a Cambridge Audio 551P Phono > Schiit SYS > Linn Klout work ok? Am I going to get sufficient volume from this setup?

FYI the Klout has input impedance of 5k ohms.

Alternatively I could look towards a phono stage with a digital out (making use of the COAX on the D50s) —however the simplicity of a passive setup appeals to me.

Open to any suggestions.
Why don't you use the Kairn?
Did you try to just feed it with the phono preamp and the D50s?
That's a real preamp.
 
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Blumlein 88

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My guess is the use of the passive volume control might be enough, but only barely.

Depends upon your speakers really. Are you often using the whole power of the amp on peaks or not? If your speakers are pretty efficient then you'll maybe get by with the Schiit SYS.

Now the Schiit has another issue with the Klout which has the unusually low input impedance of 5 k ohms. The Schiit at -6 db will have an output impedance of 5 k ohms which is going to make for a terrible match. I think you'll louse up the sound. At other volume settings the output impedance of the SYS will be less, but you'll get variable frequency response with volume setting.
 

Rja4000

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Why don't you use the Kairn?
Ok, I was looking for specs for the Kairn but couldn't find any. No review with measurement either...
Not good.
I used to have a Linn Majik I, and I've been using it as a preamp some time. Quite convenient, with the remote control.
I guess the Kairn is similar.
 

Blumlein 88

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What you need is an ADC and send the digitized phono to the D50 (assuming you have an open digital input).

Here is an oldie, but a goodie. MSB Audio Director. I've owned one in the past. It was an odd product, but it takes line level signals and digitized them to 96/24.

This place claims to have some for $44.99 These were like $400 new back a several years.
https://www.ntc-tech.com/product/msb-add-1-9-input-audio-director_18666

EDIT: Just noticed these don't have the required power supply. Sorry. I'll ask my friend about his if you are interested.

You can look at the manual for them here:
http://www.sound4sale.com/manuals/ADD_Manual 2.pdf

I also have a friend who probably would sale his to you. He is on vacation and would be back in a couple weeks. I don't know what he wants for his.

Any way, your phono would probably put out a signal that might end up a minus -10 dbFS or -12 dbFS signal at max. So if you run your D50s usually at that or lower it would be fine.

You'll feed your phono to this, and it will put out a 96 khz/24 bit signal. 1.4 volts input will give max digital signal. This unit has AES/EBU, coax, and toslink optical digital outputs. So if you have an open digital input on your D50s this would work. You'll still be using your D50s as the preamp feeding the amp.

Cambridge Phono>MSB ADC>D50s>Klout.
 
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Soniclife

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Why don't you use the Kairn?
Did you try to just feed it with the phono preamp and the D50s?
That's a real preamp.
I was wondering the same.
If putting it between the topping and the poweramp makes things worse then I can understand wanting to avoid it, else I see no good reason to avoid using it.
 
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Lammie

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Why don't you use the Kairn?
Did you try to just feed it with the phono preamp and the D50s?
That's a real preamp.
I was wondering the same.
If putting it between the topping and the poweramp makes things worse then I can understand wanting to avoid it, else I see no good reason to avoid using it.

Yep, that's an obvious solution!

I'm not sure what adding the Kairn back into the chain will do from a sound quality/experience point of view, but yes—that would be the simple fix, however not the purest.

I'm quite pleased with the performance of the D50s into the Klout—and the simplicity/minimalism of this setup is very nice.

My thinking with the Schiit SYS (or something similar) is that it keeps the digital side of things straightforward, while also providing a simple solution for the times that I use the phono. I would say that 90% of my listening is through the digital side, so adding an ageing preamp into the mix for the 10% of the time that I fire up an LP is something I'm trying to avoid.

I dunno, maybe I'm being a bit fussy.

Or...I just keep the Phono > Kairn setup and get an RCA switcher (aka the Schiit SYS if it doesn't work passively?).
 

Wombat

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Yes, correct—thank you for requesting clarification.

Passive Amplifier = Attenuator/Volume Control.

What I'm getting at is basically an attenuator/switch that I can put between the DAC and the phono stage so I can control the volume of the turntable, while easily switching between the TT and the DAC/Pre.


Note: I added to my reply in post no 2. just after your response.
 

AudioSceptic

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I have been running a purely analogue amplification setup—a Linn Kairn Pre to Linn Klout Amp (driving a pair of Linn 140s).

The amplification combo were hand-me downs and I have thoroughly enjoyed the sound from the setup. The Klout is a beautiful beast. My two sources have been a turntable via a Cambridge 551P phono stage on the digital side an AppleTV for Apple Music/Airplay/Bluetooth. The AppleTV connects to the Kairn via headphone-out on my TV.

I briefly borrowed a Linn Sneaky network player. However I hardly used it due the average user interface and the requisite amount of faffing around with a network, NAS, etc. Apple Music/AppleTV gave a user experience and access to music that outweighed the audio benefits of the Sneaky system.

I've long realised the weak point in the system is the embarrassing use of the DAC via the TV. I had been eyeing off the PS Audio Stella Gain DAC. It has all the inputs I need (USB, COAX, HDMI, etc) and looked like it would suitably replace the Kairn. In my research into this DAC/Pre I came across this site which immediately changed my mind on the product.

Instead, after reading through the reviews here on ASR, I have purchased a Topping D50s which runs utterly beautifully with the Klout. Everything sounds cleaner, clearer, more defined. It is quite simply better than I could have imagined. So thanks to ASR for the hot tip!

Ok, that was a long intro...

Now that the digital side is literally singing, I'm stuck as to how to get my turntable back into the system.

I'm considering a Schiit SYS to switch between the D50s and phono (and allow attenuation for the phono). But all this talk about input/output impedance has me thoroughly confused.

My question is: would a Cambridge Audio 551P Phono > Schiit SYS > Linn Klout work ok? Am I going to get sufficient volume from this setup?

FYI the Klout has input impedance of 5k ohms.

Alternatively I could look towards a phono stage with a digital out (making use of the COAX on the D50s) —however the simplicity of a passive setup appeals to me.

Open to any suggestions.
Is the idea to lose the Kairn? Is there an obvious difference between Topping > Kairn > Klout and Topping > Klout?

Edit: I see that others have asked this. I don't understand why you don't try the above. Simple to do and you don't need to buy anything!

Edit2: You will also restore the trigger function to switch on the Klout. :)
 
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Lammie

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Note: I added to my reply in post no 2. just after your response.

Hey Wombat, thanks for doing the maths. Appreciate it! I guess that puts a pin in the SYS idea.

Is the idea to lose the Kairn? Is there an obvious difference between Topping > Kairn > Klout and Topping > Klout?

Edit: I see that others have asked this. I don't understand why you don't try the above. Simple to do and you don't need to buy anything!

Edit2: You will also restore the trigger function to switch on the Klout. :)

Ok, so there is a noticeable difference putting the Kairn back into the chain. First off, as AudioSceptic mentioned, I don't have to physically give the Klout a 'reach-around' :p to turn it on—thanks to the remote-on feature between the two units.

However the Kairn definitely has a noticeable hiss (when nothing is playing) from the tweeters when it's plugged in (no matter what level the volume is set). It's not disastrous, but the Topping is almost dead silent in comparison. If I really listen to it, the Kairn sounds a little more veiled and warm, perhaps losing a bit of the clarity of the Topping? I know these kinds of assessments are hardly tolerated here on ASR however I don't have any ability to subjectively measure it.

Finally, I didn't mention this in my already rather long initial post, but the Kairn can be flakey. Maybe once every three or four months it will shut off or throw the 'DO NOT PANIC' message—requiring a power down and short rest before coming back to life. I've had it given a look over by a hifi tech who said that it's difficult to diagnose if the fault is only occasional—and it's not worth replacing parts until it fully—and definitively—craps out.

I know most of you are probably thinking "FFS, just plug it into the Kairn and get on with your life" however—I'm interested in investigating simple/clean solution to the phono situation that isn't going to make the digital side of things more complicated. It seems to me that adding in a big whopping (25 year old) preamp in to the mix isn't the most elegant setup.

This leads me to my next question, are there any decent phono stages that have built in preampfification? That would allow the phono to run separately to the digital, and they could both feed into an RCA switcher? Good idea? Bad idea? Are you all sick of me yet?
 

BDWoody

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Hey Wombat, thanks for doing the maths. Appreciate it! I guess that puts a pin in the SYS idea.



Ok, so there is a noticeable difference putting the Kairn back into the chain. First off, as AudioSceptic mentioned, I don't have to physically give the Klout a 'reach-around' :p to turn it on—thanks to the remote-on feature between the two units.

However the Kairn definitely has a noticeable hiss (when nothing is playing) from the tweeters when it's plugged in (no matter what level the volume is set). It's not disastrous, but the Topping is almost dead silent in comparison. If I really listen to it, the Kairn sounds a little more veiled and warm, perhaps losing a bit of the clarity of the Topping? I know these kinds of assessments are hardly tolerated here on ASR however I don't have any ability to subjectively measure it.

Finally, I didn't mention this in my already rather long initial post, but the Kairn can be flakey. Maybe once every three or four months it will shut off or throw the 'DO NOT PANIC' message—requiring a power down and short rest before coming back to life. I've had it given a look over by a hifi tech who said that it's difficult to diagnose if the fault is only occasional—and it's not worth replacing parts until it fully—and definitively—craps out.

I know most of you are probably thinking "FFS, just plug it into the Kairn and get on with your life" however—I'm interested in investigating simple/clean solution to the phono situation that isn't going to make the digital side of things more complicated. It seems to me that adding in a big whopping (25 year old) preamp in to the mix isn't the most elegant setup.

This leads me to my next question, are there any decent phono stages that have built in preampfification? That would allow the phono to run separately to the digital, and they could both feed into an RCA switcher? Good idea? Bad idea? Are you all sick of me yet?

Maybe the Parks Puffin?
http://parksaudiollc.com/

There is a simple manufacturer supported DIY option to add an spdif out, so you could route this either as an analog or digital input.

I have one...it's a pretty slick little device.
 

Wombat

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Hey Wombat, thanks for doing the maths. Appreciate it! I guess that puts a pin in the SYS idea.



Ok, so there is a noticeable difference putting the Kairn back into the chain. First off, as AudioSceptic mentioned, I don't have to physically give the Klout a 'reach-around' :p to turn it on—thanks to the remote-on feature between the two units.

However the Kairn definitely has a noticeable hiss (when nothing is playing) from the tweeters when it's plugged in (no matter what level the volume is set). It's not disastrous, but the Topping is almost dead silent in comparison. If I really listen to it, the Kairn sounds a little more veiled and warm, perhaps losing a bit of the clarity of the Topping? I know these kinds of assessments are hardly tolerated here on ASR however I don't have any ability to subjectively measure it.

Finally, I didn't mention this in my already rather long initial post, but the Kairn can be flakey. Maybe once every three or four months it will shut off or throw the 'DO NOT PANIC' message—requiring a power down and short rest before coming back to life. I've had it given a look over by a hifi tech who said that it's difficult to diagnose if the fault is only occasional—and it's not worth replacing parts until it fully—and definitively—craps out.

I know most of you are probably thinking "FFS, just plug it into the Kairn and get on with your life" however—I'm interested in investigating simple/clean solution to the phono situation that isn't going to make the digital side of things more complicated. It seems to me that adding in a big whopping (25 year old) preamp in to the mix isn't the most elegant setup.

This leads me to my next question, are there any decent phono stages that have built in preampfification? That would allow the phono to run separately to the digital, and they could both feed into an RCA switcher? Good idea? Bad idea? Are you all sick of me yet?


FYI: https://vinylrestart.com/is-a-phono-stage-the-same-as-a-preamp/
 

AudioSceptic

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Hey Wombat, thanks for doing the maths. Appreciate it! I guess that puts a pin in the SYS idea.



Ok, so there is a noticeable difference putting the Kairn back into the chain. First off, as AudioSceptic mentioned, I don't have to physically give the Klout a 'reach-around' :p to turn it on—thanks to the remote-on feature between the two units.

However the Kairn definitely has a noticeable hiss (when nothing is playing) from the tweeters when it's plugged in (no matter what level the volume is set). It's not disastrous, but the Topping is almost dead silent in comparison. If I really listen to it, the Kairn sounds a little more veiled and warm, perhaps losing a bit of the clarity of the Topping? I know these kinds of assessments are hardly tolerated here on ASR however I don't have any ability to subjectively measure it.

Finally, I didn't mention this in my already rather long initial post, but the Kairn can be flakey. Maybe once every three or four months it will shut off or throw the 'DO NOT PANIC' message—requiring a power down and short rest before coming back to life. I've had it given a look over by a hifi tech who said that it's difficult to diagnose if the fault is only occasional—and it's not worth replacing parts until it fully—and definitively—craps out.

I know most of you are probably thinking "FFS, just plug it into the Kairn and get on with your life" however—I'm interested in investigating simple/clean solution to the phono situation that isn't going to make the digital side of things more complicated. It seems to me that adding in a big whopping (25 year old) preamp in to the mix isn't the most elegant setup.

This leads me to my next question, are there any decent phono stages that have built in preampfification? That would allow the phono to run separately to the digital, and they could both feed into an RCA switcher? Good idea? Bad idea? Are you all sick of me yet?
Funny you should say that. I have Kairn + Klout, bought together used about 20 years ago. The Klout's still fine, but a while ago I started getting the DO NOT PANIC message on the Kairn. This means the Mempack battery is dying. I replaced the battery and it was fine for a while but then it started to play up. It would sometimes take a number of tries to get it to start up, so I left it on permanently. After a recent power cut, it wouldn't start back up at all, but I also have a Kolektor so now use that instead.

There's something wrong if you can near hiss. Linn electronics are among the quietest around.

Pro-Ject probably have a suitable phono + preamp, if the quality is sufficient <https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/ad-box-s2-phono/> but is their range confusing or what?
 
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Lammie

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Your Kairn tales sound oh so very familiar. Especially with weird stuff after a power cut. Interesting note on the hiss with Linn, I always thought it was mains noise or interference or something. It was quite a pleasant surprise when the Topping went in and the hiss left.

Coincidentally I was actually on the Pro-Ject site a few moments ago and was eyeing off the AD Box (and also trying to make sense of the Pro-Ject site, good god what a mess). The AD Box is much cheaper than the Puffin (doesn't seem as fun though). The Puffin also has a Coax out, which happens to be the only vacant digital-in left on the D50s. It's 2.5 times the price of the Pro-Ject though. Hmm... maybe I can sell the Kairn *shifty eyes*.
 

Soniclife

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also has a Coax out, which happens to be the only vacant digital-in left on the D50s
There are simple cheap converters to change the type of digital, if another small box isn't an issue.
 

somebodyelse

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Funny you should say that. I have Kairn + Klout, bought together used about 20 years ago. The Klout's still fine, but a while ago I started getting the DO NOT PANIC message on the Kairn. This means the Mempack battery is dying. I replaced the battery and it was fine for a while but then it started to play up. It would sometimes take a number of tries to get it to start up, so I left it on permanently. After a recent power cut, it wouldn't start back up at all, but I also have a Kolektor so now use that instead.
That sounds similar to a generic problem a radio collecting friend mentioned recently. The EPROMs in the older microprocessor controlled radios have started to lose their programming. It starts as occasional errors when starting, and gets progressively worse until it fails entirely (too many flipped bits). He and other collectors are taking to copying the EPROMs from working radios and rewriting the failed ones.
 
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