Parks Audio Waxwing measurements

[Multicore]

Regarding Parks Audio handling of clipping/overload .
I got this data by accident... not a planned test. Puffin Clipping and not clipping. Timespan 0-4msec.
MM setting clipping. too high gain Shure V15 IV SAS-B
View attachment 389250

Sorry not same cartridge MC+SUT not clipping, AT-OC9MLii

View attachment 389251



View attachment 389252



Toshiba LF-90001 side B , track one first metronone click
View attachment 389253

The question for me: Does this inquest conclude that the clipping is accounted for by user error?

Iiuc, the Puffin and Waxwing are a bit unusual among phono preamps in having an input gain control that the user is expected to adjust, a bit like the gain knobs of the mic preamps on my audio interface. When recording from a mic, clipping is my fault, not the devices. Does that apply here too?

Btw, awesome graphs, @Balle Clorin in both your posts Thursday. Thanks.

 

[Multicore]

on the occasional album itll take certain low frequencies or upper mid heavy synth sounds and make it sound like the stylus is mistracking. turn it off and itll sound fine.

Is heavy synth the only style of music that causes problems with the magic function? Anything else?

Given what narud reports and what we understand of how it works I think it's safe to conclude that there are other musical signals that it affects. Still, it's interesting. If you're into vinyl and considering using the MAGIC feature then you're not a purist and it's therefore a subjective pragmatic decision: is your listening better with or without it. Hard to characterize that judgement in audio science measurements!

 

[pogo]

Does that apply here too?

Yes.

 

[Bob from Florida]

The question for me: Does this inquest conclude that the clipping is accounted for by user error?

Iiuc, the Puffin and Waxwing are a bit unusual among phono preamps in having an input gain control that the user is expected to adjust, a bit like the gain knobs of the mic preamps on my audio interface. When recording from a mic, clipping is my fault, not the devices. Does that apply here too?

Btw, awesome graphs, @Balle Clorin in both your posts Thursday. Thanks.

No different than any other adjustable phono preamp except the adjustment precision is much better on the Waxwing. Using an Ortofon Blue on an iFi Zen on the LOMC setting is going to clip….

 

[morillon]

No different than any other adjustable phono preamp except the adjustment precision is much better on the Waxwing. Using an Ortofon Blue on an iFi Zen on the LOMC setting is going to clip….

ortofon blue is not a mm?

2M Blue

The goal for any cartridge should be to reproduce the sound as close to the artist's vision as possible, and the 2M blue takes you further on this journey of authenticity. With the 2M Blue, you get serious about listening to vinyl.

ortofon.com

 

[Multicore]

No different than any other adjustable phono preamp except the adjustment precision is much better on the Waxwing. Using an Ortofon Blue on an iFi Zen on the LOMC setting is going to clip….

That's a fair argument that I don't entirely agree with. If the Parks devices are aimed at technical nerds that understand how to set gain then ok. If they are consumer HiFi devices then not so much. I think @sergeauckland set the considerations out well in this post. A solvable engineering optimization problem may not be so easy for all users. Just for example, my Art Precision Phono Pre has a gain trim knob +/- 10 dB and I set it in the middle not knowing what else to do. It's still set there.

The other dimension is that it's a lost opportunity/not necessary. A budget interface like the MOTU M2 has over 115 dB(A) dynamic range. With that kind of front end it should be possible to build a consumer phono ADC without needing a gain knob.

 

[Bob from Florida]

ortofon blue is not a mm?

2M Blue

The goal for any cartridge should be to reproduce the sound as close to the artist's vision as possible, and the 2M blue takes you further on this journey of authenticity. With the 2M Blue, you get serious about listening to vinyl.

ortofon.com

Exactly- if an end user can’t read the manual on gain matching then maybe that user needs to be using something else entirely. It was an example of what not to do.

 

[Bob from Florida]

That's a fair argument that I don't entirely agree with. If the Parks devices are aimed at technical nerds that understand how to set gain then ok. If they are consumer HiFi devices then not so much. I think @sergeauckland set the considerations out well in this post. A solvable engineering optimization problem may not be so easy for all users. Just for example, my Art Precision Phono Pre has a gain trim knob +/- 10 dB and I set it in the middle not knowing what else to do. It's still set there.

The other dimension is that it's a lost opportunity/not necessary. A budget interface like the MOTU M2 has over 115 dB(A) dynamic range. With that kind of front end it should be possible to build a consumer phono ADC without needing a gain knob.

Getting someone to “read the “mf’ing manual” is a problem not limited to the Waxwing. Honestly, the caliber of individual not willing to learn the basics of LP playback is not going to be a happy camper anyway.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Does this inquest conclude that the clipping is accounted for by user error?

Your English is too advanced for me , am Norwegian…
If you choose too high gain it will clip… and you get a warning sign. Then you can adjust gain to avoid clipping. 39 on MM and 61 on 0.35mV MC are is OK in my case. When I clipped the MM I think gain was 51 or maybe 41 cannot recall

 

[AaronJ]

The whole appeal of the Waxwing and Puffin really should be the magic function, right? $100 phono preamps can get RIAA right, and there are myriad other ways to do EQ or do ADC for the curiosity of analyzing on a computer. For $500 seems like a great package but only if the magic function is of value. I don’t have one yet but am becoming increasingly more interested solely for reduction of pops and clicks.

 

[pogo]

The whole appeal of the Waxwing and Puffin really should be the magic function, right?

The WAXWING is more than just Magic. The other functions such as Air, Warmth, ... I also like them. You can also use the Waxwing as a preamp and only need one power amp. You can use the PEQ to correct the coarsest room mode. And you don't even have to use the Waxwing for phono. If you integrate it into a tape loop, you can benefit from its DSP functions.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I use Puffin/Waxwing to much more than Magic, my records hardly need it.

1 . Frequency sweeps of test records , it has an EQ choice that fits test records EQ. JVC,Clearaudio, B&K..No other RIAA has that.
2. Setting Azimuth accurately,see Parks youtube.
3.Setting balance, few cartridges are perfectly balanced.
4. Needle drops/record directly to PC via Toslink USB converter.
5. Set anti-skate ( use with common Ortofon test record, also used for 2 and 3)
6.verify RPM and adjust.
7.Magic
8. deRumble
9. Low Filter to remove rumble and grunge from non flat records, and filter out arm/cart resonance . High filter to tame clicks or step up transformer peaks
10. EQ cartridge to a perfection that money cannot buy. See picture on top.
11. Finetune gain.
12. FX 2 tube harmonics,I actually found that this could be used to cancel out 2order distortion inherent in the vinyl format. Not sure if it was a coincidence or not, forgot to use it lately.
Did I mention that the RIAA correction is perfect…

Puffin/Waxwing lets you easily optimize vinyl playback in a way no other device can do. If you want more loading options, add on DB systems loading plugs

 

[Multicore]

Your English is too advanced for me , am Norwegian…

Sorry, I used the analogy of an inquest, the old bureaucratic method of determining cause of death. The official judgement of the expert committee of ASR posters needs to answer: Is that clipping your fault or not?

If you choose too high gain it will clip… and you get a warning sign. Then you can adjust gain to avoid clipping. 39 on MM and 61 on 0.35mV MC are is OK in my case. When I clipped the MM I think gain was 51 or maybe 41 cannot recall

It seems you accept the blame.

 

[Multicore]

The whole appeal of the Waxwing and Puffin really should be the magic function, right?

Not to me. Having learned something about the various difficulties of analog design that goes into phono preamps, and properly sorting them out isn't trivial, I decided that a digital implementation of as much as possible would be desirable.

$100 phono preamps can get RIAA right, and there are myriad other ways to do EQ or do ADC for the curiosity of analyzing on a computer. For $500 seems like a great package but only if the magic function is of value. I don’t have one yet but am becoming increasingly more interested solely for reduction of pops and clicks.

If pops and clicks are that big a problem, why are you listening to vinyl?

I imagine the price of Waxwing reflects in part the R&D costs divided by sales volume.

 

[Multicore]

Getting someone to “read the “mf’ing manual” is a problem not limited to the Waxwing. Honestly, the caliber of individual not willing to learn the basics of ...

Ok, that answers my question, yes blame the user. And beyond that, denounce their sloth, a deadly sin.

 

[Balle Clorin]

If the Parks devices are aimed at technical nerds that understand how to set gain then ok

If people can operate a volume control, they can set gain.
Parks supply a guideline of values for different cartridge.

1.Pick a value, play a loud track and try to increase gain until you get the overload marker= * ( puffin)
2. Now you know what gain gives overload, reduce gain value by 2 units.
Finished.
Here is my Shure V15 IV JICO SAS-B at 39 db gain, after a very loud track. Peak is -0.7= no clipping.

 

[AaronJ]

Not to me. Having learned something about the various difficulties of analog design that goes into phono preamps, and properly sorting them out isn't trivial, I decided that a digital implementation of as much as possible would be desirable.


If pops and clicks are that big a problem, why are you listening to vinyl?

I imagine the price of Waxwing reflects in part the R&D costs divided by sales volume.

They’re not a big problem. I do have some records that do have too many issues to listen to and are on the list for replacement - hoping they could be saved. This doesn’t apply to 90% of my collection but could possibly help here and there where a disc might have a click for a few rotations. Single pops aren’t as distracting as one going off every 2 seconds for a few spins.

 

[mppix]

The question for me: Does this inquest conclude that the clipping is accounted for by user error?

Iiuc, the Puffin and Waxwing are a bit unusual among phono preamps in having an input gain control that the user is expected to adjust, a bit like the gain knobs of the mic preamps on my audio interface. When recording from a mic, clipping is my fault, not the devices. Does that apply here too?

Btw, awesome graphs, @Balle Clorin in both your posts Thursday. Thanks.

As with all ADCs, they should never clip regardless if they are for phono, mics, general audio (or picture..). The gain is there to help maximize loudness (DAC resolution) without clipping.The puffin can run at 24/96 so it has resolution to spare. There are likely many schools of thought how this can be used. One approach is to set gain such that the ADC stage operates at an approximate loundess of -24 LUFS. This is plenty of headroom for music and clipping from pops and clicks.
Parks audio cartridge guidelines tend to result in a hotter signal, approx -16 LUFS with my cartrige, aligning better with typical loudness settings (giving up some headroom).
EDIT: I am still looking into how gain affects the Puffin noise floor..

The other dimension is that it's a lost opportunity/not necessary. A budget interface like the MOTU M2 has over 115 dB(A) dynamic range. With that kind of front end it should be possible to build a consumer phono ADC without needing a gain knob.

EDIT: The Puffin uses competent chips (TI I think). I am curious where the theoretical DAC performance is with gain=1 and without RIAA (it does have a CD mode..).

 

[mppix]

Here is my Shure V15 IV JICO SAS-B at 39 db gain, after a very loud track. Peak is -0.7= no clipping.

View attachment 389847

Overload happens in the input stage governed by the gain. Your ADC level "A" is at -7.0/-6.6 (good).
Your digital level "D" after processing (eq and volume) is a -0.7 (fine but close).

..

The noise level out of my Puffin is -84db or less relative to 2.11 volt at 61db gain with MC cart on. Few records has a vinyl noise better than -50, the lowest I have on a mint test record is -60. So any RIAA better than -80 for MC is good enough for a good listening experience I think, I do not like to hear any hiss or rush or grunge when the stylus is off the record . In my system a hav an an extra 10db gainin preamp to level with the CD input giving a total MC gain of 70db, and it is dead silent(1”from speaker cone) on any listening level. Noise performance is not a problem in my system .

View attachment 388288

I am writing this just to let people know that what could appear as a problem really is not, Maybe Parks did something smart in the implementation..

Strongly agree with this post. Looked at it again. Can you confirm the gain/cart for this reading?

 

[pogo]

I am still looking into how gain affects the Puffin noise floor..

I can only help you with the Waxwing, but maybe that's what you're looking for: Link