Parks Audio Waxwing measurements

[antcollinet]

Hello!
Can you confirm that the Waxwing can be used as a line level DSP between a preamp and power amp?
Would it be transparent and have much lower distorsion and noise compared to the MM/MC input?
What about the noise from the 5V USB PSU?
Seems a bit odd to use a preamp with excellent PSU performance together with a mobile USB unit.

Can someone answer thise questions.
Thank You.

Probably already been answered in the previous year or so - but here is my consolidated stab.

1 - Yes, it can act as a line level DSP - just set gain to 0dB - but bear in mind it will be applied to all pre-amp sources. (though you can save multiple setups)
2 - Depends on the performance of the built in MM/MC input - but I guess it will be measureably better than a built in phono pre. And yes - it is transparent to the medium (nose/distortion very much lower than vinyl itself)
3 - Noise from the PSU does not appear (audibly) at the output - like any well designed electronics). As with all vinyl systems - difficult sources of noise for vinyl are the surface noise, and hum type ground noise. The waxwing is particularly good at eliminating ground noise if you use the optical output and give it a good solid ground connection - better than any analogue pre-amp I've ever used.
4 - Correct. I have the waxwing - I use it as a phono preamp, not as a line level DSP. It will be audibly as good as almost any other phono pre amp, and better than most.

 

[Laush]

Thanks for your reply. I have a McLaren PPA20 and an Audiolab 8000Q. Would connecting the Waxwing in line-in mode with 0dB gain via the 8000Q's tape-out loop be a better idea for noise reduction than using the Waxwing itself as a phono preamp? When connected via tape-out, I can switch between analog and Waxwing inputs with a single button. My Audiolab 8000Q is a late UK version, almost a McLaren P20R, and only has a 1000ohm resistor in the tape-out path.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Thanks for your reply. I have a McLaren PPA20 and an Audiolab 8000Q. Would connecting the Waxwing in line-in mode with 0dB gain via the 8000Q's tape-out loop be a better idea for noise reduction than using the Waxwing itself as a phono preamp? When connected via tape-out, I can switch between analog and Waxwing inputs with a single button. My Audiolab 8000Q is a late UK version, almost a McLaren P20R, and only has a 1000ohm resistor in the tape-out path.

I don’t think it can reduce tape hiss. Its noise reduction is solely for pops and clicks on vinyl. Sugar cube I think can handle tape hiss but not waxwing

 

[somebodyelse]

I don’t think it can reduce tape hiss. Its noise reduction is solely for pops and clicks on vinyl. Sugar cube I think can handle tape hiss but not waxwing

You've misunderstood I think - the proposal is to use the preamp's tape output/input like an effects send/return, not for anything related to tape.

 

[Bland_username42069]

You've misunderstood I think - the proposal is to use the preamp's tape output/input like an effects send/return, not for anything related to tape.

Ah I see - using the tape loop on the amp with waxwing as a line level noise reduction processor.

Yes you can do that. I think sugar cube would be better at present as waxwing noise reduction does bring audible but marginal improvements. I think they are bringing out a new algorithm this year though which should increase it’s effectiveness.

 

[Laush]

My question is, can this setup:
- affect (improve) the magic function
- using PPA20 instead of the opamp in the Waxwing to amplify the analog signal from the cartridge reduce the system's noise and improve dynamics?
PPA20 specs: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/tag-mclaren/ppa20.shtml

 

[Bland_username42069]

My question is, can this setup:
- affect (improve) the magic function
- using PPA20 instead of the opamp in the Waxwing to amplify the analog signal from the cartridge reduce the system's noise and improve dynamics?
PPA20 specs: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/tag-mclaren/ppa20.shtml

It can’t improve the noise reduction because the software is just looking for clicks and pops.

 

[Laush]

It can’t improve the noise reduction because the software is just looking for clicks and pops.

Regarding noise, I was thinking about the difference in self-noise: analog amplifier before ADC in waxwing vs PPA20.

 

[Bland_username42069]

Regarding noise, I was thinking about the difference in self-noise: analog amplifier before ADC in waxwing vs PPA20.

You could probably lower it using a different phono stage and using waxwing as a line in but it will be an inaudible difference as the noise floor of the record playing will dominate.

All you will end up doing is putting some marginal noise reduction processing in the chain.

 

[antcollinet]

Regarding noise, I was thinking about the difference in self-noise: analog amplifier before ADC in waxwing vs PPA20.

You either use the analogue amplifier in your preamp or the one in the waxwing. Either way you need around 40dB gain for MM or around 60dB for MC.

Which is best depends on .... which is best. Without compatible measurements of both - it is not possible to say which will be best. Personally I would just use the waxwing as it is intended. As @Bland_username42069 points out - it is much better than the noise floor of vinyl which will likely mask any difference between the two pre-amp stages.

 

[markstein]

My question is, can this setup:
- affect (improve) the magic function
- using PPA20 instead of the opamp in the Waxwing to amplify the analog signal from the cartridge reduce the system's noise and improve dynamics?
PPA20 specs: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/tag-mclaren/ppa20.shtml

I recommend the Waxwing without messing around with a complicated setup.

My journey:
I am using a MC cartridge (AT33PTG/II).

Started with a ProJect DS3B and balanced connection to the cartridge. 60dB gain. Noise was relatively high, pops and clicks extremely pronounced and annoying (low headroom at high frequencies). Sold the ProJect unit.

I then used my excellent RME Fireface UFX II mic input as analog amplifier @60dB gain with balanced connection to the cartridge and did the RIAA EQ using FIR filters and Acourate convolver. Noise was very considerably lower. Pops and clicks very barely noticeable. ADC and DAC level control were possible using the RME level meters to avoid any clipping in the signal chain. However, turning on the PC for listening to records was a little bit annoying, so I tried an easier solution:

The Waxwing is always on when powered up. No booting time. The app features ADC and DAC level control to prevent clipping. I am using unbalanced connection to the cartridge (0.5m coax cable), 62dB analog gain, -6dB digital gain and Toslink optical connection to my DAC. Zero mains hum. Noise is a little higher than with the RME, however much lower than with the ProJect DS3B.

The app functionality is extremely useful: HP and LP filters, warmth, magic, mono bass (derumble), PEQ to adjust your MM cartridge to taste, elapsed play time (cartridge wear monitoring), tools for speed control and azimut adjustment etc. Expect frequent firmware improvements and very kind email support (thank you Shannon).

At least for me, the "phono preamp" journey is over


As an alternative, you might also consider the MiniDSP Adept which in the meantime received a firmware update for more flexible analog gain control if I am correct. On paper, this unit might have the better measurements. I cannot comment on sound quality and usability.

 

[LewisWaddo]

That’s really the weakest point about the Waxwing. The iOS app is functional, but it breaks a few iOS interface conventions and is one of the uglier iOS apps out there.

Good news!!!

So, looks like Shannon is rolling out an open source web app to control the waxwing. This means that even if the App Store goes down, you will be able to alter the settings on the waxwing. The GUI looks to fit every feature in one page also! Looks very cool.

I’ve also been told that it’s very easy to make the app work with different themes to your taste.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Good news!!!

So, looks like Shannon is rolling out an open source web app to control the waxwing. This means that even if the App Store goes down, you will be able to alter the settings on the waxwing. The GUI looks to fit every feature in one page also! Looks very cool.

I’ve also been told that it’s very easy to make the app work with different themes to your taste.View attachment 546103

Much better UI than the mobile app!

 

[somebodyelse]

So, looks like Shannon is rolling out an open source web app to control the waxwing. This means that even if the App Store goes down, you will be able to alter the settings on the waxwing. The GUI looks to fit every feature in one page also! Looks very cool.

Good to see, but note browser compatibility for the Web Bluetooth API is essentially limited to Chrome derivatives unless someone has written a plugin to enable it. Firefox has separate plugins for linux and Windows. I suspect @Billy Budapest will be out of luck with iOS.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Good to see, but note browser compatibility for the Web Bluetooth API is essentially limited to Chrome derivatives unless someone has written a plugin to enable it. Firefox has separate plugins for linux and Windows. I suspect @Billy Budapest will be out of luck with iOS.

Maybe, but I do have Chrome on my iOS devices as well as on my Surface.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Good to see, but note browser compatibility for the Web Bluetooth API is essentially limited to Chrome derivatives unless someone has written a plugin to enable it. Firefox has separate plugins for linux and Windows. I suspect @Billy Budapest will be out of luck with iOS.

I just found Web Bluetooth extensions for Safari:

ioswebble App - App Store

Download ioswebble by Wojciech Kulma on the App Store. See screenshots, ratings and reviews, user tips, and more apps like ioswebble.

apps.apple.com

Web Bluetooth in real iPhone Safari — beacio

The same navigator.bluetooth code you ship to Android Chrome, now in the real Safari iPhone users already have — not a separate browser. Free to confirm your device connects. No native app, no rewrite.

beacio.com

 

[somebodyelse]

Maybe, but I do have Chrome on my iOS devices as well as on my Surface.

The trouble is Apple don't let anyone deploy an alternate browser engine on iOS, so other browsers are really just a different interface on top of Safari there. I don't remember whether this is one of the bits of lock-in they're being forced to change in the EU.

 

[Sonyman]

I need to get something off my chest, because I feel like the vinyl community is being brainwashed by modern tech marketing.
Look at devices like the Parks Audio Waxwing or other DSP-based phono stages. They take the beautiful, continuous analog signal from your cartridge, immediately smash it into digital 1s and 0s (AD/DA conversion), process it with an app, and then turn it back into analog.
Am I the only one who thinks this completely defeats the entire purpose of playing vinyl?
If I wanted to listen to a 24-bit/96kHz digital file, I would just stream it from Tidal or buy a CD. It’s cheaper, more convenient, and has zero surface noise. The whole reason we spend money on turntables, cartridges, and records is to enjoy a 100% pure, uninterrupted analog signal chain from the groove to the speakers. That continuous physical wave is where the "magic" and life of vinyl lives.
Injecting a digital computer right at the start of the chain just to get "perfect RIAA" or digital click-removal is a lazy cop-out. If your setup has so much noise or poor synergy that you need a DSP app to "fix" it, you shouldn't buy a digital phono box—you should just buy a better analog phono stage and learn how to setup your table correctly.
Why are people tolerating AD/DA conversion in a medium that is defined by being analog? Are you guys actually enjoying vinyl, or are you just streaming a record with extra steps?

 

[Dischord]

I need to get something off my chest, because I feel like the vinyl community is being brainwashed by modern tech marketing.
Look at devices like the Parks Audio Waxwing or other DSP-based phono stages. They take the beautiful, continuous analog signal from your cartridge, immediately smash it into digital 1s and 0s (AD/DA conversion), process it with an app, and then turn it back into analog.
Am I the only one who thinks this completely defeats the entire purpose of playing vinyl?
If I wanted to listen to a 24-bit/96kHz digital file, I would just stream it from Tidal or buy a CD. It’s cheaper, more convenient, and has zero surface noise. The whole reason we spend money on turntables, cartridges, and records is to enjoy a 100% pure, uninterrupted analog signal chain from the groove to the speakers. That continuous physical wave is where the "magic" and life of vinyl lives.
Injecting a digital computer right at the start of the chain just to get "perfect RIAA" or digital click-removal is a lazy cop-out. If your setup has so much noise or poor synergy that you need a DSP app to "fix" it, you shouldn't buy a digital phono box—you should just buy a better analog phono stage and learn how to setup your table correctly.
Why are people tolerating AD/DA conversion in a medium that is defined by being analog? Are you guys actually enjoying vinyl, or are you just streaming a record with extra steps?

The great thing is that you don't have to do it if you don't want to, and those who want to can.

 

[antcollinet]

Am I the only one who thinks this completely defeats the entire purpose of playing vinyl?

Probably not. Though you, and those who think like you seem to be missing the point that the AD and DA step don't detract in any way from that "beautiful, continuous analog signal from your cartridge"

The whole reason we spend money on turntables, cartridges, and records is to enjoy a 100% pure, uninterrupted analog signal

The analogue signal that comes out of the waxwing - or any other DAC (if a digital output is used) is audibly 100% identical to the analogue signal going in (except of course for the needed gain and RIAA). So your reasoning for wanting a 100% analogue signal chain - has no basis in sound quality.

That continuous physical wave is where the "magic" and life of vinyl lives.

No, it isn't. Or yes it is. But either way the wave coming out of the waxwing is just as continuous and objectively just as "magic" as the one that comes out of any analogue phono stage.

Injecting a digital computer right at the start of the chain just to get "perfect RIAA" or digital click-removal is a lazy cop-out.

It really isn't. From a design perspective it is much simpler to do RIAA in the analogue domain. But going to the effort of doing everything digitally gives you better performance, together with the features the waxwing delivers that simply can't be done in analogue.

Are you guys actually enjoying vinyl, or are you just streaming a record with extra steps?

For me the enjoyment of vinyl has little to do with absolute sound quality, and certainly nothing to do with "a 100% pure, uninterrupted analog signal chain". If it were I would not be doing it, since it can't come close to digital for objective sound quality.




Bottom line - if your reason for listening to vinyl is only so you can have a "pure analogue signal chain" - regardless of the fact you don't get any audible benefit from that - then obviously the waxwing is not for you.

It is for people who desire the obvious sound quality and convenience benefits that the DSP can bring to the vinyl experience.