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Parasound 200 Pre Review (DAC, Preamp, Phono)

sarumbear

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I am not MarkS.
Good to know but why are you telling me that?

My previous post was not aimed to anyone particular. It was an argument on one subject and one subject only. Lack of scientific proof. We were told the forum is not called electronics engineering review and science offers explanation on audibility of distortion. I simply asked a reference to that. So far none appeared.

Can we stop polluting the thread now?
 

Hugo9000

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O Most Blessed Green LED Display! <3 <3 <3 You have not completely forsaken us in this era of blue light filth harking back to 1970s KMart Hell!

1631462124187.png



Kill it with fire! Nuke it from orbit!
kill it with fire.jpg
 

Pdxwayne

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Good to know but why are you telling me that?

My previous post was not aimed to anyone particular. It was an argument on one subject and one subject only. Lack of scientific proof. We were told the forum is not called electronics engineering review and science offers explanation on audibility of distortion. I simply asked a reference to that. So far none appeared.

Can we stop polluting the thread now?
Hey, I was told that someone complaint about my last reply to you.

I wish to apologize to everyone if my post was misinterpreted as asking you to shut up.

I actually really do want to know why you ask for proof and if there is no definitely proof, what would you think?

Even if there is no definite scientific paper, I still want to further provide examples to you to explain why in this case it is safe to claim why most people can't sense a difference.
 

sarumbear

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I actually really do want to know why you ask for proof and if there is no definitely proof, what would you think?

Even if there is no definite scientific paper, I still want to further provide examples to you to explain why in this case it is safe to claim why most people can't sense a difference.

I started commenting to the following post (Emphasis is mine.)
The name of the forum is "audio science review", not "electronics engineering review". And audio science says that the electronics-engineering shortcomings of this product are almost certainly inaudible to almost certainly everyone (possibly excepting clicks and pops on vinyl, if you care about that). So there is a group of us who just don't care about inaudible electronics-engineering shortcomings, and feel frustrated that reviews here seem to emphasize them.
The poster is referring to audio science. I asked a scientific paper as a refence that proves his point. None submitted so far. Everything I saw was empirical (depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory) hence they were contrary to his argument that this is not an "electronics engineering review" forum.

I am not arguing if you or I can hear distortion at any level. I am simply arguing that there is no scientific theory exists that proves either. Simply saying "science says" with no reference, and then declaring that they have a PhD from Stanford so they should know, is bad form and required a challenge.

It is important to read the entire thread to understand the context of a single post. This will be my last post on this issue on this thread. We have polluted the thread enough. If you want to continue please start a new thread.
 

Pdxwayne

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I started commenting to the following post (Emphasis is mine.)

The poster is referring to audio science. I asked a scientific paper as a refence that proves his point. None submitted so far. Everything I saw was empirical (depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory) hence they were contrary to his argument that this is not an "electronics engineering review" forum.

I am not arguing if you or I can hear distortion at any level. I am simply arguing that there is no scientific theory exists that proves either. Simply saying "science says" with no reference, and then declaring that they have a PhD from Stanford so they should know, is bad form and required a challenge.

It is important to read the entire thread to understand the context of a single post. This will be my last post on this issue on this thread. We have polluted the thread enough. If you want to continue please start a new thread.
I think masking effect can explain it?

Here is Wikipedia link:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

Lots of good references at the bottom for you to decide if it is scientific enough for you.
 

MarkS

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If you count a live/TV recording engineer’s post on a commercial home theatre review site
I wrote that you should look at the references in that article. Like this one:

Multitone Testing of Sound System Components - Some Results and Conclusions, Part 1: History and Theory,
Journal of the Audio Engineering Society 49(11):1011-1048,
Eugene Czerwinski, Alex Voishvillo, Sergei Alexandrov, Alexander Terekhov
https://www.researchgate.net/public...lts_and_Conclusions_Part_1_History_and_Theory

They are mostly intetrested in speaker distortion. They make statements like this (summarizing earlier work of H. Olson): "For example, the perceptible level of distortion on music in the maximally wide frequency band corresponded to 0.75%. Narrowing the frequency band increased the threshold of detection of the distortion."

80dB corresponds to 0.01%.
 

sarumbear

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Multitone Testing of Sound System Components - Some Results and Conclusions, Part 1: History and Theory,
Journal of the Audio Engineering Society 49(11):1011-1048,
Eugene Czerwinski, Alex Voishvillo, Sergei Alexandrov, Alexander Terekhov
https://www.researchgate.net/public...lts_and_Conclusions_Part_1_History_and_Theory

I shouldn’t have posted but when I read the following on the introduction of the above paper I couldn’t resist.
An accurate, subjective quality-related method of sound equipment assessment remains the Holy Grail of the audio industry.
 

BCL1234

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I have the preamp, NewClasssic 2100, that was replaced by the Pre 200. NewClassic, that's an oxymoron...

Taking Parasound's published specs as accurate (which it seems they are for the Pre 200), it's interesting to note that the 2100 and higher model P7 preamp have better performance than the 200:

P7 preamp:
Total harmonic distortion:
< 0.006% at 20 kHz

S/N ratio:
> 110 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted
> 95 dB, input shorted, unweighted

2100 preamp:
THD Distortion
< 0.008% at 20 Hz

S/N Ratio
> 105 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted
> 95 dB, input shorted, unweighted

The current P5 and P6 preamps have similar performance to the 200. Seems newer products are underperforming older ones - hitting "good enough" design targets?

My system is modest, but I like the sound of the 2100. In A/B comparison (volume matched, sighted) with the Yamaha AVR (as preamp) in my system, it seems quieter with better bass performance, FWIW.

Agreed; I think it's important to remember Parasound specs line up closely with these tests:

S/N Ratio – Line Inputs:
> 100 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted
> 90 dB, input shorted, unweighted


S/N Ratio – Digital Inputs:
> 100 dB, input shorted, IHF A-weighted
> 90 dB, input shorted, unweighted


Total Harmonic Distortion: (20 Hz - 20 kHz)
< 0.03 %
 

Buzz Roll

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I think this is actually not that bad, it might not break records but it will probably sound transparant while having a good unique feature set en decent pricing. Haven't seen another pre in this price range that offers double subwoofer outputs and high-pass outputs for our power amps. The MiniDSP SHD is still a lot better, but also significantly more expensive.

I have this preamp with a Parasound 275 v2 amp and Harbeth P3 ESR speakers. I chose Parasound for the price, features and customer service. Sound wise the Parasound combo is no different than any of the previous integrated amps that I've tried with the P3's...
 

BCL1234

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What about the performance of the headphone amp in the preamp? Is it one in the same as the preamplification circuit with same attributes?
 

Durt

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I know I'm late to the party with this observation and it's not exactly about the NC 200 pre. Even after reading the initial analysis, I bought the NC 200 integrated on sale for the same price as the pre with the intentions of adding an amp later, but my class D aversions were largely unfounded even with the off the shelf Pascal engine so no additional amp so far. The very capable functionality and low power draw (semi off grid) primarily sold me as an office system. Paired with my Totem Sky / REL T5x and fed by Bluesound Node I find all but hyper critical listening is very nice. 10 hours a day and I'm happy. I added a spare Modius and found it an improvement to both the NC 200 and Node dacs. Other room systems are Hint 6 and Focal, tube and Klipsch, NAD and Kef, and other middling components.
Much much obliged to Amir and others on this forum for the subjective variable my science brain requires. My pleasure brain appreciates you.
 

GeorgeWalk

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I, also, have the Parasound NC 200 Pre + the NC 275 v2 + Nikko Alpha III amp. I bought the Parasounds before Amir's review. I use them in my office also. I have an RPI4 (running piCorePlayer) with a Topping D10s via USB. I have Klipsch 5 1/4" Bookshelf speakers wall mounted in the corners (4). The NC 275 drives the front speakers and the Alpha III drives the rear channel. I have had the Alpha III since 1978 and I recapped it myself. The system sounds great in my office.
 

drmevo

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I know I'm late to the party with this observation and it's not exactly about the NC 200 pre. Even after reading the initial analysis, I bought the NC 200 integrated on sale for the same price as the pre with the intentions of adding an amp later, but my class D aversions were largely unfounded even with the off the shelf Pascal engine so no additional amp so far. The very capable functionality and low power draw (semi off grid) primarily sold me as an office system. Paired with my Totem Sky / REL T5x and fed by Bluesound Node I find all but hyper critical listening is very nice. 10 hours a day and I'm happy. I added a spare Modius and found it an improvement to both the NC 200 and Node dacs. Other room systems are Hint 6 and Focal, tube and Klipsch, NAD and Kef, and other middling components.
Much much obliged to Amir and others on this forum for the subjective variable my science brain requires. My pleasure brain appreciates you.
I just joined the site and had some questions involving my 200 Integrated (thread in the Newbie forum). I had actually looked for a review on the Parasound 200 (Pre or Integrated) previously but this wasn't listed under "Parasound" in the Review Index for some reason. I actually came across this thread searching something else about the amp on the web.

In any case, I also love mine and I think it's an especially great value for someone like me who doesn't have the option of totally separate Hi-Fi and Home Theater set ups. The features are excellent and I wasn't able to find really anything else that could do the same things close to this price (I use it for HT Bypass and the sub controls are what seem to be unique here). The controls on the remote are great as well. I haven't compared with a decent class A/B amp but it seems to have no trouble driving my Kef LS50 Meta's (although I'm sure a higher end amp would pull more out of them).

I think the conclusions of the review are fair. I don't use the phono amp but you can turn it off and use the input for something else, which I do with an external phono amp. I am certainly not under illusion this is the "best" but good/great for the money in my use case.
 

Chrispy

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Seems more problems are created using this idiotic bypass type solution with an integrated amp on top of an avr/prepro/preamp.
 
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