Palmer Orbit 11 vs Neumann KH120a

[CB89]

In this thread, I would like to compare the Palmer Orbit 11 with the Neumann KH120a. I will also compare a near-field setup (1.1m) with a mid-field setup (2.5m). Furthermore, I would like to test pair matching in the near field and address other matters.

But actually, they were supposed to replace my KS-Digital D606 speakers. Also 3-way coaxial speakers. That's the idea behind the purchase of the Orbit.

Let's start with a few pictures.



Compared to Neumann KH120a.


Compared to KS-Digital D606.


They are really compact.

 

[CB89]

Setup (Midrange, 2.5m)

Initial measurements and adjustments to control the bass.

Then the measurement of the two channels.

Coarse EQ per channel and L+R measurement.

Finally, equalize the sum. Done.

 

[CB89]

Self-noise

Neumann wins. Or rather, the Neumann are practically "noise-free," the Orbit have slightly more noise, but this quickly dissipates with distance. Perfectly acceptable to me.

 

[CB89]

First impression

These speakers are capable of reproducing subsonic bass. Given their size, the accuracy of the reproduction is almost astonishing. Without an equalizer, it will be difficult to control the bass in small rooms. Alternatively, a suitable high-pass filter is recommended.
My first impression is that these speakers are very much on par with my previous 2.1 setup in terms of bass reproduction.

However, there are physical limits. These will probably become apparent at high volumes. I only listen at normal room volume, so I don't notice any problems.

 

[CB89]

Workmanship

The build quality is on a similar level to Neumann KH120a*. Solid die-cast aluminum housing with good gap dimensions and a clean connection terminal.

* The newer version of the KH120 (II) is no longer made of die-cast aluminum, but of a polycarbonate composite material.

Settings

The controls are brilliantly designed on the top, facing the listening position. Adjustments can be made very quickly without having to reach around to the back. A superb solution.

LED status light

Bright, or rather, luminous. Could bother sensitive people. Slightly brighter than Neumann, less bright than the blue LED on my KS-Digital.

Feet

There are four rubberized feet on the underside. The rubber is rather hard. Because of this, I could no longer use my IsoAcoustics ISO-155 table stands. The feet decouple well from the surface, and vibrations are hardly transmitted.
Placing it on speaker stands might be problematic due to its depth and the feet. I'll test that later in a near-field setup.



Heat

After several hours of continuous use, the back is lukewarm or slightly above room temperature. Practically the same as with Neumann.

 

[EAXAE]

Please, share more about KS! How do they compare to both Palmer and Neumann and why are you replacing them?

 

[CB89]

Sweet spot

I'd say it has a rather wide sweet spot. The sound remains stable even when you move your head from side to side.

Stereo width

In my opinion, the stereo width seems to primarily occur between the speakers. Occasionally, the width extends slightly beyond the speakers. So, generally speaking, a slightly narrower stereo width.



On the other hand, interesting manipulations of the phase, such as the opening seconds of Falco's song "Naked," are reproduced correctly. It sounds as if the sound is behind you and moving from left to right.

 

[dickiefunk]

Thankyou for posting this. I’m currently using a pair of KH120a’s with an Eve TS108 sub. I’m torn between upgrading my sub to the KH750 or change to the Orbit 11’s.
The self noise might be a slight issue for me as I do a lot of audio editing.

 

[CB89]

Thankyou for posting this. I’m currently using a pair of KH120a’s with an Eve TS108 sub. I’m torn between upgrading my sub to the KH750 or change to the Orbit 11’s.
The self noise might be a slight issue for me as I do a lot of audio editing.

The drop in self-noise can be roughly calculated. I measured at a distance of approximately 3cm. At a distance of 0.5 m, the self-noise is approximately 14.8 dB, and at one meter, it's 8.7 dB. This is below the level of ambient noise in a living room, which is around 25 dB.

It's not such an easy decision whether to get a new subwoofer or new speakers in your case. I don't want to give away the conclusion too early, but the Orbit speakers offer more than just more bass. Otherwise with the Neumann Sub you would have the option of using the Neumann calibration system and you wouldn't have to get used to new speakers. Difficult decision.

 

[amirm]

The drop in self-noise can be roughly calculated. I measured at a distance of approximately 3cm. At a distance of 0.5 m, the self-noise is approximately 14.8 dB, and at one meter, it's 8.7 dB. This is below the level of ambient noise in a living room, which is around 25 dB.

At what frequency? Source based noise is also audible below diffused noise floor.

 

[Scrivs]

The last picture made my day, thank you

 

[SUNS]

The drop in self-noise can be roughly calculated. I measured at a distance of approximately 3cm. At a distance of 0.5 m, the self-noise is approximately 14.8 dB, and at one meter, it's 8.7 dB. This is below the level of ambient noise in a living room, which is around 25 dB.

It's not such an easy decision whether to get a new subwoofer or new speakers in your case. I don't want to give away the conclusion too early, but the Orbit speakers offer more than just more bass. Otherwise with the Neumann Sub you would have the option of using the Neumann calibration system and you wouldn't have to get used to new speakers. Difficult decision.

Everyone seems to have a different meassure of the self noise.. on mine the hiss when not connected to anything is audible at 1m..

 

[Tovarich007]

A bit too much self noise for nearfield use. it's often a little weakness in small relatively budget self powered monitors -and sometimes more than "budget" ones.
It's not a No Go for me, cos the hiss is low in level, but it could be easily improved, Maybe in the next production batches ?

 

[dickiefunk]

The drop in self-noise can be roughly calculated. I measured at a distance of approximately 3cm. At a distance of 0.5 m, the self-noise is approximately 14.8 dB, and at one meter, it's 8.7 dB. This is below the level of ambient noise in a living room, which is around 25 dB.

It's not such an easy decision whether to get a new subwoofer or new speakers in your case. I don't want to give away the conclusion too early, but the Orbit speakers offer more than just more bass. Otherwise with the Neumann Sub you would have the option of using the Neumann calibration system and you wouldn't have to get used to new speakers. Difficult decision.

The KH750 would be the most expensive option but I think I’m leaning more towards that at the moment. I am so used to my KH120’s and understand how they translate and learning new speakers may be more hassle than it’s worth in the long run.
I’m going to wait for more user reviews of the Orbit 11’ s and see if any issues crop up before I make a definite decision. I still may end up trying a pair of the Orbits at some point to hear how they perform in my room.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The drop in self-noise can be roughly calculated. I measured at a distance of approximately 3cm. At a distance of 0.5 m, the self-noise is approximately 14.8 dB, and at one meter, it's 8.7 dB. This is below the level of ambient noise in a living room, which is around 25 dB.

As mentioned, that's an apples and oranges comparison. Most of that 25 dB is going to be low-frequency, with little treble content that could mask anything. The audibility threshold for pure white noise from speakers is approximately 4 dB SPL. The Orbit has enough oomph for a listening distance approaching 2 m, so unless you are explicitly going after nearfield use there shouldn't be any issues with hiss. Plus these guys seem to have a very hot input with copious output even with 20 dB of attenuation engaged, so some improvements may still be possible. User feedback so far seems to indicate that they aren't any noisier than say 80 series Genelecs.

 

[CB89]

@amirm
I'm not sure what you mean. I calculated the drop in volume using the inverse square law (sound pressure level decreases by 6 dB when the distance is doubled, free field). But the result is only approximate and only applies to one loudspeaker. I tried measuring larger distances (0.5, 1m) with the SPL meter, but it remained at 30 dBa "Under".

@SUNS
I tested it without an audio connection and couldn't measure any difference. Same ~39dB.

@Tovarich007 @AnalogSteph
In my opinion, the self-noise is very low. I set up a near-field setup today and am sitting about 1m away and can't perceive anything. You have to get within 20-30cm to perceive anything. With Neumann, on the other hand, you have to hold your ear a few centimeters from the tweeter; that's the difference.

 

[CB89]

Pair matching

Both speakers were measured in as similar a position as possible. No abnormalities.

 

[CB89]

Setup (Nearfield, 1m)

Tested the near field today. The acoustics at this spot are more difficult as in the midfield, but the result is still okay. That completes the testing.




Conclusion

The Orbit speakers are tonally balanced and offer good depth of field. Due to their size and low cutoff frequency, they are very versatile and could make a subwoofer unnecessary in some setups.

In comparison to Neumann KH120a and KS-Digital D606, I would put the Orbit in first place, then the KS-Digital, and the Neumann in third place.

The Orbit and the KS-Digital speakers leverage their advantages due to the three-way design and the coaxial design, thus setting themselves apart somewhat from the Neumann speakers. From my point of view, the Neumann KH310 would be a better comparison partner.

The differences between Orbit and KS-Digital are less pronounced. I prefer the depth of field of the Orbit and find it easier to pick out details. The bass of the KS-Digital is crisper, but the Orbit plays significantly deeper.

A clear recommendation for the Orbit, they are excellent speakers at a very fair price.

A selection of the test tracks:

• Bastille "Distored Ligth Beam" (subtle reverberation).
• Fischerspooner "Danse En France" (depth of field).
• Mark Knopfler "Rüdiger" (body of the voice).
• Yello "Life is a Snowball" (reference audio recording).

@EAXAE
I want to replace the KS-Digital for the following reasons:

• They have a noticeable hiss, even at 2.5 meters. Actually pretty bad for the price range, but I overlooked it because of the sound quality.
• They get hot. I'm worried the amplifier will blow in the summer.
• I've had these speakers for 10 years and I'm ready for something new.

The original plan was to replace them with the Neumann KH120 II in the summer. The Orbit then tempted me to make a spontaneous purchase.

 

[sidechain]

Setup (Nearfield, 1m)

Tested the near field today. The acoustics at this spot are more difficult as in the midfield, but the result is still okay. That completes the testing.

View attachment 515226View attachment 515227


Conclusion

The Orbit speakers are tonally balanced and offer good depth of field. Due to their size and low cutoff frequency, they are very versatile and could make a subwoofer unnecessary in some setups.

In comparison to Neumann KH120a and KS-Digital D606, I would put the Orbit in first place, then the KS-Digital, and the Neumann in third place.

The Orbit and the KS-Digital speakers leverage their advantages due to the three-way design and the coaxial design, thus setting themselves apart somewhat from the Neumann speakers. From my point of view, the Neumann KH310 would be a better comparison partner.

The differences between Orbit and KS-Digital are less pronounced. I prefer the depth of field of the Orbit and find it easier to pick out details. The bass of the KS-Digital is crisper, but the Orbit plays significantly deeper.

A clear recommendation for the Orbit, they are excellent speakers at a very fair price.

A selection of the test tracks:

• Bastille "Distored Ligth Beam" (subtle reverberation).
• Fischerspooner "Danse En France" (depth of field).
• Mark Knopfler "Rüdiger" (body of the voice).
• Yello "Life is a Snowball" (reference audio recording).

@EAXAE
I want to replace the KS-Digital for the following reasons:

• They have a noticeable hiss, even at 2.5 meters. Actually pretty bad for the price range, but I overlooked it because of the sound quality.
• They get hot. I'm worried the amplifier will blow in the summer.
• I've had these speakers for 10 years and I'm ready for something new.

The original plan was to replace them with the Neumann KH120 II in the summer. The Orbit then tempted me to make a spontaneous purchase.

What speaker stands are you using in that picture and do you think they fit in standard Jamstands/On-Stage stands?

 

[CB89]

@sidechain
The K&M 26754. The base plate fits, but it shouldn't be much smaller, or the base plate shouldn't have a stopper at the front.