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Palmer Orbit 11 Monitor Review

Rate this monitor speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 8 2.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 47 17.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 144 52.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 73 26.8%

  • Total voters
    272
They are so tiny that at one point their good power and drivers are fighting physics.
Yeah, there are limits to what you can do in a small sealed box ultimately. The DD8C and C8C absolutely have these limitations too (they're not exactly large boxes), though being a somewhat larger sub-cabinet for the woofers helps this as the air spring is more linear at higher excursions in a larger box. You can see this at 86dB for the 8C vs the Orbit via Erin's own measurements - the 8C stays below 3% to ~45hz, and doesn't go above 5% until about 35; by comparison, the O11 hits 3% at about 55hz, and hits 10% by about 45hz. Neither of these is anywhere near world-beating (compare to the ported monopole KH420, which doesn't rise above 3% literally at all at 86dB), but like everything in speaker engineering, it's all tradeoffs.

The reason you don't see the rise in lower midrange/upper bass distortion on the O11 vs the 8C is solely down to just how low the 8C is controlling the pattern by comparison (almost another octave lower). Controlling to ~250hz is great, and I'd certainly call that "good enough" for a speaker of its size, but getting pattern control down to ~150hz passively requires a great deal more excursion - and the 8C doesn't have any meaningful amount more midwoofer driver area to do that (the center is a phase plug, so just like a coax driver, it's not radiating anything from that region).
 
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My conclusion : This palmer Orbit iis a good deal but not on a par with a Genelec, a Neumann or a PSI.
But of course, prices aren't the same and that matters much for the majority of people.
Aren't comparisons usually made in the same price class? Doesn't this mean Genelec, Neumann and PSI speakers of comparable price are not on par with the Orbits? Independent of price, I would choose the Orbits over e.g. Genelec 8331A due to lower bass extension, lower distortion, higher maximum SPL and overall better directivity control. Yes 8331A curves are a little smoother but directivity control is lost below 800Hz while Orbits controll dispersion more than one octave lower. Orbits cost 789€ vs. 2089€ for 8331A at Thomann.

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Neither of these is anywhere near world-beating (compare to the ported monopole KH420, which doesn't rise above 3% literally at all at 86dB), but like everything in speaker engineering, it's all tradeoffs.
A comparison to KH 310 would be more suitable considering price and size of the Orbits. We both know that this would yield quite different results.
The reason you don't see the rise in lower midrange/upper bass distortion on the O11 vs the 8C is solely down to just how low the 8C is controlling the pattern by comparison (almost another octave lower). Controlling to ~250hz is great, and I'd certainly call that "good enough" for a speaker of its size, but getting pattern control down to ~150hz passively requires a great deal more excursion - and the 8C doesn't have any meaningful amount more midwoofer driver area to do that (the center is a phase plug, so just like a coax driver, it's not radiating anything from that region).
For 8C the question is if dispersion control below 250Hz is worth the distortion penalty. At 96dB SPL, 8C distortion is quite high past 1kHz. Lower cardioid extension is not the only reason for high distortion. And 1% k3 at 1kHz is audible - at least for sine sweeps. That midrange compression doesn't look too good either. However, these speakers are widely accepted to provide exceptional sound quality. Maybe a good reason to question harmonic distortion limits.

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It's either the best of both worlds or the worst of both. Polarizing
 
A comparison to KH 310 would be more suitable considering price and size of the Orbits. We both know that this would yield quite different results.
The point was to compare something of an entirely different design - big and ported vs small and sealed.

As to your other point, if your midrange is at 96dB the bass is way higher. Given normal program material curves, you'll run out of steam in the low end long before the midrange. I'd argue getting pattern control down to 150hz is low enough that SBIR (when up against a wall) stops being an issue because by the time the frequencies start being a problem, the speaker is quite meaningfully directional.

Like Amir's review and opinions, Erin seems luke warm about this speaker.
Yeah. It's fine, even good for the price... but the hype behind it was probably not quite deserved and if anything it's juiced a bit hard.
 
The point was to compare something of an entirely different design - big and ported vs small and sealed.
The fact that Neumann's top model is required to have a clear distinction to the Orbits says it all. Probably you have seen my KH 310 vs Orbit 11 comparison. Another speaker that doesn't look good against the Orbits if price is considered. Independent of price, I don't see or hear a clear winner between these. But I could not compare them directly. There was 15 minutes and a different room/setup between listening sessions.
As to your other point, if your midrange is at 96dB the bass is way higher. Given normal program material curves, you'll run out of steam in the low end long before the midrange.
But then distortion in the midrange is much more audible than in the bass. And in fact room gain results in the Orbits never running out of steam for me and other actual owners despite running fullrange at high levels. So I consider bass limitations a theoretical problem when it comes to the Orbits.
I'd argue getting pattern control down to 150hz is low enough that SBIR (when up against a wall) stops being an issue because by the time the frequencies start being a problem, the speaker is quite meaningfully directional.
I also see it like that. Actually, pattern control to 250Hz is sufficient if the speakers are small enough and placed right at the wall as possible with the Orbits. Here is a post regarding this toppic.
Yeah. It's fine, even good for the price... but the hype behind it was probably not quite deserved and if anything it's juiced a bit hard.
A quick look at the measurement and price comparison to 8331A posted above, makes this statement appear like wishfull thinking or an attempt to protect established brands. And I can see that these brands need your support against their new competitor. The Genelec is more than double the price (triple list price), has overall lower performance and is juiced even harder as the compression test including muted tweeter shows. One or two steps up the ladder are required for Genelec coaxial speakers to match the Orbits.
 
Like Amir's review and opinions, Erin seems luke warm about this speaker.
If they listened to it equalized, or if the equalized EIR went into a firmware update, I bet their opinions would be better. The original EIR is not bad but also not good. With great dispersion the EQ fix would do wonders.

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Yes... But the Orbit 11 in particular has one of the most massive increases in calculated preference scores from stock (6.3) to EQ'ed (7.5) among the top active monitors.
 
Top 20 active speakers according to spinorama score with EQ:

IndexCompanyModelScoreScore EQ
1Kii AudioThree7,598,1
2Dutch & Dutch8C7,237,96
3KEFLS607,447,9
4AsciLabC8C7,667,82
5Buchardt AudioA5006,627,8
6Buchardt AudioA106,947,52
7ShivaudyoPoint Zero6,637,47
8PalmerOrbit 116,267,45
9GGNTKTM16,947,45
10MesanovicCDM657,077,42
11NeumannKH 420G7,067,4
12Buchardt AudioA7006,337,31
13BarefootFootprint 015,887,3
14Genelec8351B6,967,29
15NeumannKH 310A6,17,17
16NeumannKH 1506,817,15
17Genelec8341A6,757,15
18Genelec8361A6,637,12
19Genelec8050B6,157,11
20Genelec8331A6,657,05

Score with EQ / USD (prices listed on spinorama).
Now guess which speaker stands out with the best score to price ratio.

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Fanboy alert
 
Top 20 active speakers according to spinorama score with EQ:

IndexCompanyModelScoreScore EQ
1Kii AudioThree7,598,1
2Dutch & Dutch8C7,237,96
3KEFLS607,447,9
4AsciLabC8C7,667,82
5Buchardt AudioA5006,627,8
6Buchardt AudioA106,947,52
7ShivaudyoPoint Zero6,637,47
8PalmerOrbit 116,267,45
9GGNTKTM16,947,45
10MesanovicCDM657,077,42
11NeumannKH 420G7,067,4
12Buchardt AudioA7006,337,31
13BarefootFootprint 015,887,3
14Genelec8351B6,967,29
15NeumannKH 310A6,17,17
16NeumannKH 1506,817,15
17Genelec8341A6,757,15
18Genelec8361A6,637,12
19Genelec8050B6,157,11
20Genelec8331A6,657,05

Score with EQ / USD (prices listed on spinorama).
Now guess which speaker stands out with the best score to price ratio.

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As you probably know by now I also really like the Palmer and its unique feature at this price class of controlling the directivity so low but on the other hand I must also say that to be fair if we compare the pure qualities of the radiation the score with EQ and sub matters and there the small directivity problems of the Palmer can be seen as it drops a lot lower in the chart* where I like you just selected the active loudspeakers to keep it comparable and manageable from size point of view:

#ModelScore with EQ & Subwoofer
1Genelec 8030C9.0
2Genelec 8331A8.9
3Dynaudio LYD 58.9
4Audio Smile Little British Monitor8.9
5Genelec 8341A8.8
6Topping MA48.9
7Neumann KH 120 II8.8
8GGNTKT M18.8
9Klipsch The Fives8.8
10Kii Audio Three8.8
11Mesanovic CDM658.7
12Neumann KH 1508.7
13Neumann KH 808.9
14Buchardt Audio A5008.7
15Neumi BS5P8.7
16Kling Freitag PIA M8.6
17Dutch & Dutch 8C8.6
18Vanatoo Transparent Zero8.6
19Monoprice MM-38.6
20Genelec S3608.6
21KEF LS50 Wireless II8.8
22KEF LS60 Wireless8.6
23JBL 305P Mark ii8.5
24Vanatoo Transparent One Encore Plus8.5
25Genelec M0408.5
26Genelec 8351B8.8
27Hivi Swan X38.5
28Audio Engine A5+ Powered8.5
29ASR Directiva Open Source Speaker8.5
30AsciLab C8C8.6
31Genelec 8330A8.4
32Genelec 8320A8.4
33IK Multimedia iLoud MTM8.4
34Fostex PM038.4
35Genelec 8361A8.4
36Neumann KH 420G8.4
37Edifier Airpulse A1008.4
38Yamaha HS88.4
39Genelec 8010A8.4
40Neumann KH 310A8.5
41Thomann Swissonic A3058.4
42Edifier M608.4
43Palmer Orbit 118.3
44JBL 4305P8.3
45Pioneer DJ VM-508.3
46Genelec 8050B8.3
47Edifier MR48.3
48Fiio SP38.3
49JBL 306P Mark ii8.3
50IK Multimedia iLoud MTM MKII8.3
51Barefoot Footprint 018.3
52Adam D3V8.3
53Kali LP-6v28.3
54Adam S2V8.3
55Shivaudyo Point Zero8.3
56Kanto YU68.3
57Focal Solo6 ST68.3
58Buchardt Audio A108.2
59Yamaha HS58.2
60Hedd Type 05 A-CORE8.2
61Buchardt Audio A7008.2
62Kanto YU8.2
63Presonus Eris E3.58.2
64Hedd Type 20 MK28.2
65Yamaha HS78.1
66Thomann Swissonic A3068.1
67Emotiva Airmotiv 6s8.1
68JBL 708P8.1
69JBL 308P Mark ii8.1
70Vanatoo Transparent One Encore8.1
71Kling Freitag CA 106 Pro8.1
72JBL 705P8.1
73Audio Engine A2+8.1
74Adam T5V8.1
75Bowers & Wilkins Formation Flex8.1
76Monoprice DT-38.0
77M-Audio BX8 D38.0
78Focal Solo6 Be8.0
79Donner Dyna 48.0
80Mackie CR3-X8.0
81Edifier R1280T8.0
82PMC Result67.9
83Klipsch The Nines7.9
84Dynaudio Core 477.9
85Presonus Eris E5 XT7.9
86Fluid Audio Image 27.9
87Grimm LS1c+SB17.9
88HK Audio LINEAR 7 110 XA7.9
89Meyer Sound Amie7.9
90M-Audio BX3 D37.9
91Kali IN-58.2
92HK Audio LINEAR 9 110 XA7.8
93Onkyo GX 30ARC7.8
94Linkwitz LXMini DIY7.8
95Adam T8V7.8
96HK Audio LINEAR 7 112 FA7.8
97JBL 708i active7.8
98Adam A5X7.7
99KRK Systems Classic 57.7
100KEF LSX7.7
101Focal Alpha 65 Evo7.7
102Kali IN-8v27.7
103Edifier S2000 Pro7.7
104HK Audio LINEAR 7 115 FA7.7
105Presonus Eris E3.5 2nd edition7.7
106Ex-Machina Pulsar MKII7.7
107JBL PRX9127.6
108Kali LP-UNF7.6
109KRK Systems RoKit 5 G47.6
110PSI Audio A21-M8.7
111KEF LSX II LT7.5
112JBL 4329P7.5
113Axiom ED120A7.5
114RCF Ayra Pro57.5
115Axiom ED150A7.5
116Kali LP-8v27.5
117Eve Audio SC3057.4
118Edifier MR3BT7.4
119Adam A4V7.4
120Presonus Spectre S67.3
121JBL PRX9087.3
122Midiplus MI3 II7.3
123JBL M28.2
124Kali IN-87.4
125HK Audio LINEAR 5 112 XA7.3
126HK Audio LINEAR 7 112 XA7.2
127Bang & Olufsen Beolab 207.2
128HK Audio LINEAR 9 112 XA7.1
129Fluid Audio C35BT7.1
130HK Audio LINEAR 5 112 FA7.0
131Amazon Basic R60BTUS7.0
132Midiplus MI5 II6.9
133Fluid Audio FX506.9
134Soundkraft Enigma BT6.8
135JBL 1046.7
136JBL PRX9156.6
137Donner Dyna 36.5
138Fluid Audio FX50v26.1
139Ocean Way HR55.9
140Altec Lansing Soundrower Pro 6505.2
141JBL SRX835P5.0

This doesn't mean that its bad of course but more that we must be very careful when using the score with its limitations as an argument. Like Toole says in the end the only really serious way is to look and judge the whole measurements or at least the full spinorama than just using a single number which is a way too oversimplifying metric.

*There is discrepancy in few models in the ranking to the score shown as the site uses a different one when more measurements exist while I listed the highest.
 
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If they listened to it equalized, or if the equalized EIR went into a firmware update, I bet their opinions would be better. The original EIR is not bad but also not good. With great dispersion the EQ fix would do wonders.
For a start they could have used the integrated EQ. And maybe listen in stereo as 2 speakers were available anyways. This gives a realistic impression of bass capability. I don't know yet, what Erin did with the Orbits. But judging on his comments about bass, I guess he may not have used internal EQ, either.

Due to their unique feature set, high quality and low price these speakers are of high interest for many music lovers. So it would make sense for a reviewer to spend more time with them. Anyways, we now have 3 sets of high quality measurements. The first set of measurements from @stoneeh was all I needed to buy the Orbits.

That's would be true of many speakers. They don't test EQ
This looks like EQ to me...

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As you probably know by now I also really like the Palmer and its unique feature at this price class of controlling the directivity so low but on the other hand I must also say that to be fair if we compare the pure qualities of the radiation the score with EQ and sub matters and there the small directivity problems of the Palmer can be seen as it drops a lot lower in the chart.
Compared to many of the speakers in that list, the Orbits simply don't need a sub. A sub adds cost. Small speakers require 2 subs due to high crossover frequency. Otherwise dynamics will lack seriously. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

We can add small active speakers with subs and passive speakers with amps and subs. But then the total cost has to be compared with the resulting score. Still think the result would be favorable for the Orbits.

And I don't expect that all potential buyers will achieve good sub integration. Without technical background and measurement gear this is hard to do. So it's questionable if the score will materialize in actual listening rooms.

This doesn't mean that its bad of course but more that we must be very careful when using the score with its limitations as an argument. Like Toole says in the end the only really serious way is to look and judge the whole measurements or at least the full spinorama than just using a single number which is a way too oversimplifying metric.
The score tells me that the Orbits react very positive to EQ. Good in-room performance requires EQ anyways. So this speaker is a very good option to start with as it provides full music spectrum without additional devices. This would already make them hard to beat price/performance wise because they basically have small subs integrated. On top of that comes improved imaging due to coaxial and cardioid dispersion.
 
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'score with EQ and subwoofer' is a very questionable metric. Practically worthless
 
Compared to many of the speakers in that list, the Orbits simply don't need a sub. A sub adds cost. Small speakers require 2 subs due to high crossover frequency. Otherwise dynamics will lack seriously. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

We can add small active speakers with subs and passive speakers with amps and subs. But then the total cost has to be compared with the resulting score. Still think the result would be favorable for the Orbits.

And I don't expect that all potential buyers will achieve good sub integration. Without technical background and measurement gear this is hard to do. So it's questionable if the score will materialize in actual listening rooms.


The score tells me that the Orbits react very positive to EQ. Good in-room performance requires EQ anyways. So this speaker is a very good option to start with as it provides full music spectrum without additional devices. This would already make them hard to beat price/performance wise because they basically have small subs integrated. On top of that comes improved imaging due to coaxial and cardioid dispersion.
My post didn't question their superb value for money, just showed their absolute limitations which seem to be currently inevitable at their price range, I hope in a future v2 version the will improve the radiation of their coax, bringing it to the current reference levels (which also will be seen in the score with sub and EQ).
 
'score with EQ and subwoofer' is a very questionable metric. Practically worthless
I totally disagree there, as it shows how well the radiation of the loudspeaker is and is even relevant for people are getting the maximum of their loudspeakers with EQ and subwoofers.
 
My post didn't question their superb value for money, just showed their absolute limitations which seem to be currently inevitable at their price range, I hope in a future v2 version the will improve the radiation of their coax, bringing it to the current reference levels (which also will be seen in the score with sub and EQ).
I don't argue against limitations of the Orbits. Every speaker has its limits. But Spinorama score has only limited significance in that regard. Generally, I don't see that little wiggles in directivity are of higher importance than, for example, radiation into the whole rear hemisphere. Spinorama score only cares about the wiggles, not about total dispersion control. But the latter is imo more important for actual sound. In other words, I care less about transition regions between angular ranges that receive high btw. low sound level, than about the size of the respective angular ranges.
I totally disagree there, as it shows how well the radiation of the loudspeaker is and is even relevant for people are getting the maximum of their loudspeakers with EQ and subwoofers.
A sub cannot enlarge a small speaker. For example a Neumann KH 80 is not a good speaker for larger rooms despite 8.7 score (EQ+sub). And it's not only dynamic limitation. Also radiation pattern is not optimal for larger rooms. It becomes omnidirectional at fairly high frequency, which is to be expected from a small speaker. As a result, low direct-to-reflected sound-ratio causes a blurry sound image, when auditioned from typical livingroom distance. Small speakers are best for close listening distance.

If this wasn't the case, everyone could simply use a miniature speaker like the Audio Smile Little British Monitor, add subs and show all the big speakers how to make good sound. That's just not a realistic expectation. Also note how simple it is to get extremely high Spinorama scores with mini monitors. There is not even a waveguide on the tweeter. But with sub and EQ the score is 8.9 and even without EQ the sub alone gets it to 8.3. It beats the KH 80 score without any acoustic optimization. Radiation is omni below 800Hz, which is even wider than KH 80. And due to small drivers, vertical directivity is also very good for a non-coaxial speaker.

Now compare these small speakers to KH 420, which is somewhat directional down to 300Hz. Directivity plays an important role for small vs. big speaker sound. The Orbits take directivity control one step further by cancelling more rear sound than the KH 420 removes by acoustic shading from it's large enclosure. The Orbits are small speakers with radiation and low-frequency extension resembling very large speakers. Therefore, comparison of the Orbits against mini monitors based on Spinorama score makes no sense to me.

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