Palmer Orbit 11 Monitor Review

[illusonic]

Yes. This was just after unboxing them without proper placement.

Could be related to pre-emphasis/de-emphasis.
Basically the source (RME) not applying pre-emphasis but the sink (Orbits) doing de-emphasis.

 

[Ratterbass]

Could be related to pre-emphasis/de-emphasis.
Basically the source (RME) not applying pre-emphasis but the sink (Orbits) doing de-emphasis.

View attachment 524099

Good idea. I work in pro audio and have never once needed to check these status bits. Will check when I get back home.

 

[Torinoscale]

I have also received a pair. Some observations:

- LED can be deactivated by unplugging the cable on the preamp PCB. For those, who are actually bothered by it...
- AES input has severe high frequency reduction and immense gain. You really need to turn the signal down all the way and then carefully increase output on your source.
- Noise is noticeable. I dug around a bit and found that it originates in the power amp section. I unplugged the preamp from the power amp and shunted its inputs to ground. Noise remains unchanged. Power amp drivers are a pair of MC33078. Power amp controller is IRS2093MPbF, quite an old IC and the input noise stated in its datasheet seems extremely high to me, but I am not proficient enough in power amp design to make qualified comments regarding this choice. I expected something more modern like TPA3255, but again even though I am an EE, I am not qualified enough for judgment on this choice.

Sound comparison against Focal Alpha 65 (not evo):
- high end is more clear and less harsh. The Orbit sounds cleaner and less "hyped" while also staying analytical and open.
- mids are more relaxed and it feels like the speaker is struggling not as much to reproduce clear mids. Not surprising since I am comparing a 3-way to a 2-way system. Mids are also more pronounced, although it would be more accurate to say that the Focal tend to have underrepresented mids.
- lowend is crazy for the size. It can audibly go to close to 20Hz! On the focals, you stop hearing anything around 35Hz or so. Out of the box the Orbit sound less exciting and less punchy than the Focal, although this is also due to the Focals being tuned to a more "hyped" sound and the Orbit targeting a flat reproduction. I find that, contrary to many users here, a slight lowshelf bump is quite pleasant as it gives the sound more impact. Do note that I prefer a target that has a slight bump at 100Hz and below instead of ruler flat.
Low end distortion has not been an issue so far. The Focals have higher measureable distortion (over the whole bandwidth) at the same level. When doing slow sweeps at high-ish levels I notice some "rattling" similar to port turbulances (of course this speaker does not have a port). I guess if you really need (or want) superbly clean lowend, you will have to use a sizeable subwoofer as even regular 10 or 12" subs are not entirely clean as well.

This speaker really is meant for near field and the limitations at higher output really underline this. When used accordingly to its intended purpose it is a very enjoyable speaker and the combination of price, performance and package are extremely intriguing. I can totally see how the noise will be a dealbreaker for some and I sincerely hope, Palmer will update the design to address this.


I use an ARC studio to combat some of the flaws of the Focal, which works extremely well. The Orbit also profit from this although to a lesser degree since there are much less flaws to begin with and the ARC pretty much "only" needs to correct for room instead of room + speaker. But it's very useful to combat room modes at listening position.

Thank you for your detailed post! Damn the hiss issue could really be a dealbreaker for me! I will order them though when they‘re available again and send them back if the hiss really is too much! It would be such a pity though, I think they‘d be perfect in all other aspects for me. I hope they adress the hiss in the next production run (wishful thinking, I know)

 

[Audionaut]

That’s how I use them. It’s have them connected to an ADI 2/4 Pro and an ARC Studio. I played around with highpass from 25-40Hz but didn’t notice much of an improvement in any case.

I didn't expect that, and it surprises me. Based on Amirs test, I assumed that a high-pass filter would be the best way to, first, reduce distortion and, second, improve level stability.

 

[illusonic]

I assumed that a high-pass filter would be the best way to, first, reduce distortion and, second, improve level stability.

But would that result in an audible improvement if limiters are not engaged anyways? As I get Ratterbass, he speaks about not noticing an improvement, which is probably through listening tests.

 

[Ratterbass]

But would that result in an audible improvement if limiters are not engaged anyways? As I get Ratterbass, he speaks about not noticing an improvement, which is probably through listening tests.

I did measurements and thd was unchanged in the used bandwidth.

I plan on taking them to work to do some higher quality ground plane measurements.

 

[illusonic]

I did measurements and thd was unchanged in the used bandwidth.

I plan on taking them to work to do some higher quality ground plane measurements.

How could THD change in the used bandwidth by reduction of lower frequencies?

 

[Bwaslo]

....I also have photos of the PCB but I will only share these if there is someone, who can actually derive anything useful from that.

Please do. I'd be particularly interested to see whether the DSP circuitry is on the same board.

 

[Salt]

I would basically be interested how to open this box without any damage .

 

[Ratterbass]

How could THD change in the used bandwidth by reduction of lower frequencies?

Less excursion results in less distortion and intermodulation. Though to be honest, I don’t drive these at high volume so depending on the levels the tests might give different results.

Please do. I'd be particularly interested to see whether the DSP circuitry is on the same board.

It is not. Separate board. Nothing of note on the dsp and preamp side.

I would basically be interested how to open this box without any damage .

The black ring around the woofers is just hold in place by double sided tape. You can easily carefully lift the ring and then unscrew the woofers.

 

[Sokel]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the Informations.
A Class D design from Infineon dating from 2008–2009.
In my opinion, this is a bottleneck and a bit disappointing, since a more modern solution wouldn't have been significantly more expensive.

If that chip-amp is all is used at Orbit, its power figures does not make sense.

Datasheet states 4 channels, with each one of them reaching 120W at 1kHz at -40dB THD+N (40dB SINAD)

https://www.infineon.com/assets/row/public/documents/24/44/infineon-class-d-audio-reference-design-iraudamp8-4x120w-featuring-irs2093m-and-irf6665-usermanual-en.pdf

Are we sure it's the only chip used in there?

Also, its noise is not exactly inspiring (note the FFT gain and chart unit is dBV) :

 

[Ratterbass]

If that chip-amp is all is used at Orbit, its power figures does not make sense.

Datasheet states 4 channels, with each one of them reaching 120W at 1kHz at -40dB THD+N (40dB SINAD)

View attachment 524325 View attachment 524326

https://www.infineon.com/assets/row/public/documents/24/44/infineon-class-d-audio-reference-design-iraudamp8-4x120w-featuring-irs2093m-and-irf6665-usermanual-en.pdf

Are we sure it's the only chip used in there?

Also, its noise is not exactly inspiring (note the FFT gain and chart unit is dBV) :

View attachment 524327

What you're looking at is just a possible reference design. The IC itself is just controller and gate driver. You can use it for whatever power handling you want, you need to select the appropriate mosfets and PSU for that. The controller IC can handle up to 200V rail voltage.

 

[Ratterbass]

Could be related to pre-emphasis/de-emphasis.
Basically the source (RME) not applying pre-emphasis but the sink (Orbits) doing de-emphasis.

View attachment 524099

My RME is not able to set the emphasis bit, only deemphasis on the receiver. I'll try to manually implement the emphasis filter to see where that gets me.

 

[Sokel]

What you're looking at is just a possible reference design. The IC itself is just controller and gate driver. You can use it for whatever power handling you want, you need to select the appropriate mosfets and PSU for that. The controller IC can handle up to 200V rail voltage.

Judging by the heat dissipation charts, it shouldn't be much higher than the reference in such a small enclosure, it would run pretty warm otherwise.
Noise is a glaring issue though.

 

[Ratterbass]

Judging by the heat dissipation charts, it shouldn't be much higher than the reference in such a small enclosure, it would run pretty warm otherwise.
Noise is a glaring issue though.

The power amp is mounted directly to the enclosure of the Orbit and it does get quite warm indeed.

 

[Ratterbass]

Did some more digging and as it turns out, the basic topology inside of that chip is still used in current, "modern" devices as well such as this. Noise figures are basically identical.

It is definitely possible to design low noise amplifiers with these. It might simply be the implementation of the amplifier that makes the monitor noisy. If I can be bothered to disassemble it again, I might check the amplifier gain and do some testing on the electronics. But not today.

 

[Bwaslo]

If you diassemble again, could you repeat your test (disconnect preap, short input to the amp) on the **midrange** amp? I strongly expect most of the noise is coming from the mid: it has larger radiating area, and likely very high (but wild and peaky) sensitivity in the treble range above the crossover frequency. The dsp electronic crossover to midrange will not keep high frequency noise of the DAC or amp from getting to the midrange outside of ot its band like a passive crossover would.

Edit: I'm assuming (maybe wrong) that you shorted input of tweeter amp only.... ?

 

[Bwaslo]

...

What I'm wondering is whether adding a passive LC lowpass filter between midrange driver and its amp (to block out-of-intended-band amp noise) would markedly drop the audible noise level.

That would likely require dsp eq elsewhere in the system to flatten the response again, like in the Camilladsp I'm running already. And of course void the warrantee (though I wonder how useful warrantee really is from here on the other side of the planet, given current costs to ship back!).

 

[Ratterbass]

Out of interest I acquired a pair of KH120ii and an iLoud sub to pair these with that.

Observations:

- Alpha65 don't hold a candle to either. Especially in the low mids and treble. Orbit and KH120 are more controlled, much less mushy and have less irregularities.
- KH120 are more bold and forward than either Alpha 65 or Orbit 11. Phantom center is in front of the speaker whereas with focal and palmer it is more on the plane of the speakers or slightly behind. Not better or worse, just different
- Orbit have wider (better?) stereo imaging than the KH120. When switching between the two, the KH120 feel a bit narrow. Orbit feel more immersive
- Orbit feel more "relaxed" in the mids. Cleaner maybe? In comparison the KH have a slightly compressed feeling to them (for a lack of better words). With the KH120 instruments like bass guitar have more pop in the mix, almost to an unnatural degree.
- KH120 are dead silent with gain on minimum. I really have to move within ~30cm to notice the slight hiss from the tweeter.
- iLoud sub is very handy and does a good job in small rooms. Lowend extension is about the same as the Orbits (lol) and bass is dry on moderate levels. Automatic time alignment works well. I currently have it set to 50Hz 4th order crossover. This way the KH120 still deliver some punch and the sub really only does extension and not volume. Works well so far. I also tried higher crossover but I wouldn't go higher than 80Hz with this sub, above that things get pretty muddy and you start noticing localization. Default sub level is way too high IMHO. Set sub gain to -6dB in the calibration.

I'd describe the KH as more dry and maybe a tad more analytical than the Orbit whereas the Orbit have a more balanced and natural feel. It's completely a matter of preference at this point, both are excellent speakers. I'd say for general purpose use the Orbit are better suited if you can live with the noisefloor.

I guess most of the differences between Orbit and KH120 come from the 2 vs 3 way design. The woofer on the KH has much more work to do than the mid speaker on the Orbit. I am intrigued to try a Neumann 3 way design but these are way too big for my desk.

 

[TimVG]

I'd describe the KH as more dry and maybe a tad more analytical than the Orbit whereas the Orbit have a more balanced and natural feel. It's completely a matter of preference at this point, both are excellent speakers

I remember feeling this exact way when I compared the KH80 to the Genelec G2

As good as the KH series does in terms of tweeter directivity control, it is too focussed for my taste.