Would this be 20-20kHz? Any THD limit for the 106dB max SPL?
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Palmer Orbit 11 Monitor Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Oh wow ... I expected way better from the Kii Three and 8c.
That's my reference listening speaker at 96dBSpl. And yes it's WAY bigger but you would get the same performance from maybe 200Hz upwards in a small design.
Cardioid comes with quite a penalty in maximum SPL. No matter if active or passive , there will be cancellation also in the frontal direction. Some exceptional drivers would be required to compensate. 6.5" or 8" Purify should work well.
I think the Mesanovic did not show THD increase in cardioid mode. Would have to check again to be sure.
I think the Mesanovic did not show THD increase in cardioid mode. Would have to check again to be sure.
I will repeat for what I feel like is the third time this thread that it's not a fair comparison. The 8C and Kii control directivity close to an octave or so lower than the Orbit. There's a lot more excursion going on at 150hz versus 250hz, so the distortion penalty is not trivial.
The Kii has 4 low frequency drivers to do so! 8C does it passive (more excursion) + active for low frequencies?
Nevertheless ... THD is simply very high for a reference listening device. Regardless of technology - I need a clean signal for mixing and mastering.
Nevertheless ... THD is simply very high for a reference listening device. Regardless of technology - I need a clean signal for mixing and mastering.
8C crosses to its subs at ~100hz, no active AFAIK. Kii has 4 LF drivers but they're really quite small. I've heard both of them, the 8Cs actually have (in contrast to what the measurements show) by far the most headroom of the bunch. I was able to make them sound strained with certain source material with a lot of ~80-100hz but that was at elevated levels vs what I normally work at.
(Ultimately, I ended up with the more conventional KH420, but that was largely for cost reasons... the 420s start being meaningfully directional around 450-500hz.)
I'm curious for the reasons behind the clipping at elevated SPL, and if there's some kind of protection in the amplifier or in programming. Seems to be a 400w amp which should be plenty to work w/ and they claim peak spl of 116db, however their in house distortion measurements @ 84db seem to match. Curious who their amp manufacturer is, and if that would be their shortcoming.
Peak output power
1000 W
RMS output power
400 W
Max. SPL peak
116 dB
Peak output power
1000 W
RMS output power
400 W
Max. SPL peak
116 dB
D&D 8C has 1% K3 at >1kHz for 96dB SPL and never gets below 1% THD under 1kHz. The actual distortion frequency of k3 at 1kHz is 3kHz, right at the maximum sensitivity of the ear. That's definitely audible and just too much in my view, especially for a speaker of this size and price. And k3 at 1kHz is NOT related to cardioid dispersion but to 1250Hz tweeter crossover.
Kii Three is relatively close to the Orbits regarding overall size and their woofer membrane area is only about 30% larger than for the Orbits. And smaller woofers (Kii) usually have lower maximum excursion. From this perspective, bass output may still be higher for the Kii speaker but probably not very much.
You keep repeating that Kii Three and D&D 8C extend lower in cardioid dispersion. I think this is clear to everyone interested in this topic. The question is if this is a meaningfual disadvantage for the Orbit. Like the 8C, the Orbit should go close to the rear wall. This will maximize room gain and help to reduce rear wall reflection because lowest reflection frequency with 180° phase shift still falls into the cardioid range. So there is at least a chance that rear wall reflection is remedied by the Orbits. Besides that, the Orbits do at least control dispersion down to 250Hz. For example KH420 don't. So what's the point?
Much has been said about the small size of the Orbits being a disadvantage. And acoustically this is true. But in every other aspect small is better. And delivering big sound in small size is a feature that they could actually charge extra for. See size comparison below. Volume-wise the Orbits fit 2,5x into the 8C.
And then there is the coax which may not be absolutely perfect but is really well behaved. Kii Audio, D&D and also Neumann largely ignore vertical dispersion. Coax speakers are hard to get right and all of them decided not to try. As far as I know, they all use off-the-shelve parts, potentially with some customization/optimization. Palmer went all in and designed their own coax and the result actually makes them score very well in spinorama. Vertical dispersion will add to in-room response similar to horizontal dispersion. Add a little EQ to the Orbits and spinorama score is in the same class as their cardioid counterparts.
The Orbits are also the first speaker I have seen to feature vents for passive cardioid not only at the sides but also on top and bottom. And with their side firing woofers right behind the coax, they come very close to a point source. Technologically, I definitely rate them over the KH420 due to their unique combination of well executed features. And we don't have to wait for a larger model for Palmer to become competition to Neumann and Genelec. I expect them to make most revenues with small to medium size monitors. It would surprise me if they don't have Orbits for competitor analysis in their labs.
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They are limiting, not clipping.
But if one by 9 pcs Orbit ($7101, less than one kii) it will be 166.5 litres!))
Which is 42,70€/l for the Orbit and 233€/l for the Kii ;-)
HypersonicNL
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Hi, registered new account here, but I have been following this thread since the inception.
EDIT: I meant the other thread, which has been running for much longer. > This one.
I have HEDD Type 20 MK2, and one of them suddenly popped and went quiet... Around that same date the Orbit 11's released and dayum, they looked good on paper.
While waiting for my HEDD replacement backplate (great customer service BTW!) I decided to go ahead and bite the bullet on these Palmers.
I had nothing to lose and figured it was worth a try.
I have a decently treated room (always more room for low end treatment, but I use ARC X and it works very well) of about 3 by 4 meters, so definetely not large.
Very first impressions when I got them:
Not *as* detailed as the HEDDs in the very highs. Different drivers too ,ofcourse. Transients compared to the HEDD in linearizer mode maybe a tad less, but still very good.
Once I paired them with the IK iLoud Sub, the whole system just sounds TOP notch! Better than just the HEDDs in the room (with Arc X). Of course the iLoud Sub helps with integrating the sub flawlessly, with delay and phase adjusted. This system sends much less low end to the Palmers to process so they have more room to breathe.
When I measure with ARC X it is ruler flat to +/- 25 hz and when sweeping test tones through it, it seems even all throughout the spectrum.
I would recommend the Palmers on their own (without sub) over the HEDDs if budget is an issue. They are like 3x cheaper, but not 3x worse. Far from it.
If you have a smaller room however, I would definately recommend the iLoud sub + Palmers over a pair of HEDDs type 20 Mk2. It just sounds like a great cohesive system worth at least double the price imho.
Take from this what you will, just my 2 cents.
EDIT: I meant the other thread, which has been running for much longer. > This one.
I have HEDD Type 20 MK2, and one of them suddenly popped and went quiet... Around that same date the Orbit 11's released and dayum, they looked good on paper.
While waiting for my HEDD replacement backplate (great customer service BTW!) I decided to go ahead and bite the bullet on these Palmers.
I had nothing to lose and figured it was worth a try.
I have a decently treated room (always more room for low end treatment, but I use ARC X and it works very well) of about 3 by 4 meters, so definetely not large.
Very first impressions when I got them:
Not *as* detailed as the HEDDs in the very highs. Different drivers too ,ofcourse. Transients compared to the HEDD in linearizer mode maybe a tad less, but still very good.
Once I paired them with the IK iLoud Sub, the whole system just sounds TOP notch! Better than just the HEDDs in the room (with Arc X). Of course the iLoud Sub helps with integrating the sub flawlessly, with delay and phase adjusted. This system sends much less low end to the Palmers to process so they have more room to breathe.
When I measure with ARC X it is ruler flat to +/- 25 hz and when sweeping test tones through it, it seems even all throughout the spectrum.
I would recommend the Palmers on their own (without sub) over the HEDDs if budget is an issue. They are like 3x cheaper, but not 3x worse. Far from it.
If you have a smaller room however, I would definately recommend the iLoud sub + Palmers over a pair of HEDDs type 20 Mk2. It just sounds like a great cohesive system worth at least double the price imho.
Take from this what you will, just my 2 cents.
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Peak SPL is a bogus marketing specification that means nothing. Probably some type of short term peak under unrealistic conditions at 1 Khz.
Nothing wrong with the amps.... trying to get high SPL at LF from a small enclosure is difficult and takes a lot of power.
Now that's impressive! Think we got a new speaker score coming up.
The user\buyer has free will. They\he\shi can\may buy [or not buy] marketing, reality, nothing, or something\anything else.
I guess that says it all....
And one more, uncomressed SPL, taking into account the lower frequency, e. g. for 20 Hz $3500/108 dB =32.407 $/dB
For example, I'll spend $500 and get +3dB.
Then $4000/111dB=36.036 $/dB. Is this a good investment?..
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It might be worth noting that the distortion in that graph above 80Hz is on the order of 0.1% (though this is only at 84dB). I can remember when amplifiers touted figures near that. Add a couple subs and it seems like it could do pretty well.
Definitely not 20-20k. Can't remember now without looking at the doc but I think that for mix stages it might be down 3db at 16k or something, for smaller studios I can't recall either unfortunately. I can probably dig up the docs if you're interested. Not sure if THD limits are specified.
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