Palmer Orbit 11 Monitor Review

[dfuller]

Technology – GSS Audio

gss-audio.com

Edit: Nobody needs to defeat Hoffmans law. We just don't care too much about low sensitivity anymore.

Sensitivity translates with actives to SPL handling, basically.

 

[illusonic]

Sensitivity translates with actives to SPL handling, basically.

No different from passives although these usually don't go to the same extremes as active low-frequecy speakers. One needs to provide enough power and cooling. Obviously high motor force for best possible sensitivity also helps. The GSS speakers are tiny and still produce astounding bass output. I've seen them in Munich High End show and in my memory they pumped out some serious bass for their size.

In most cases it is not the bass that generates the most heat in speaker voice coils but the midrange frequencies. So separate speakers (as in 3-ways) may help to keep heat low. Besides that, small enclosures translate to lower cost especially if these are made from aluminum. Logistics, storage and packaging costs all scale with size. And often smaller speakers have better WAF resulting in higher sales. So small speakers with deep bass have their place outside an audiophile cost no object bubble.

 

[Torin Krell]

I’m not sure I understand your reply, I never said KH310 or small ones are far field.

Obviously several nearfield monitors can easily be used midfield (including those mentioned) if they are highpassed and teamed with quality subs. My Genelec 8341As are highpassed at 90hz with a pair of 12" subs (which I choose to run in stereo) and sound glorious in the nearfield and midfield, even at significant SPLs.

 

[Sokel]

Intended use of (any) gear is one thing and what we want them to be is another.
These ones are clearly defined by the company, pro, near-field use.

That's their fair game and any comparison should be about the same intended use.

Now, wanna use them as speakers for an HC or at a living room 4 meters apart, no one will stop no one, have a ball.
Heck, we have seen 300 liters mains monitors at living rooms (admittedly large ones obviously) and it would take a surgeon to take the smile off from the owners.

But as specific tools for a job, nope, that's not what they are made for.

(the above stands for any type of gear, not Orbit alone)

 

[levimax]

Technology – GSS Audio

gss-audio.com

We just don't care too much about low sensitivity anymore.

Not really, even several kilowatts of power, even if it could some how be dissipated in a small enclosure with small drivers, is not going to be enough to get high SPL out of a low effeciency speaker. For example it looks like the Orbit requires 200 watts to reach 85 dB at 30 Hz. In order to reach 105 dB, which is not really loud at LF, would require 20,000 watts. The whole saw about power is cheap now a days so we don't need to worry about effeciency is incorrect.

 

[illusonic]

For example it looks like the Orbit requires 200 watts to reach 85 dB at 30 Hz. In order to reach 105 dB, which is not really loud at LF

Room gain helps to get SPL at 30Hz that many people will be happy with. THD actually increases perceived bass. If you need 105dB from the speaker get a sub.

 

[Karmacoma]

Obviously several nearfield monitors can easily be used midfield (including those mentioned) if they are highpassed and teamed with quality subs. My Genelec 8341As are highpassed at 90hz with a pair of 12" subs (which I choose to run in stereo) and sound glorious in the nearfield and midfield, even at significant SPLs.

Yep, I never really understood why some feel the farfield in-room response model suddenly becomes inapropriate when it's used with monitors. If it's good it's good, no? Feel free to elaborate and change my mind guys.

 

[respice finem]

Good point, OTOH, in case of some cardioid monitors, adding a sub will interfere with the cardioid principle I guess.
With this one, less so, because the effect does not reach low enough.

 

[Flaesh]

Предусмотрено ограничение, которое снижает воспроизведение низких частот.

IMHO. The beginning of limitations is [near] the end of hi-fi.
And how does it fare at the claimed 116 dB?

 

[Sokel]

Yep, I never really understood why some feel the farfield in-room response model suddenly becomes inapropriate when it's used with monitors. If it's good it's good, no? Feel free to elaborate and change my mind guys.

Genelec has already done that, with no great success obviously:

Correct Monitors - Genelec.com

A monitor, by definition, observes, checks, controls, warns or keeps a continuous record of something. An audio monitor, studio monitor or monitoring speaker is more than just a good-sounding loudspeaker. It is a device used in the process of recording, mixing or broadcasting audio in any...

www.genelec.com

(Note, chart is about room volume at m³)

 

[capslock]

Thanks, @Amir, I was going to ask if and when you were going to review the Orbits only to find you had just done so.

The passive cardoid seems to work beautifully down to 300 Hz. Having 4Pi behaviour below is certainly not good. I wonder why they didn't use the side woofers to incorporate an active cardoid down to 100 Hz or even lower and the option to select an 80 Hz high pass in the control panel. Nice as extension down to 25 Hz may be, distortion falls apart already at 50 Hz / 86 dB/1 m. Using them with a subwoofer, preferably a cardiod subwoofer or DBA is the way to go. Combine that with an active cardoid and get true excellence.

 

[dfuller]

Yep, I never really understood why some feel the farfield in-room response model suddenly becomes inapropriate when it's used with monitors. If it's good it's good, no? Feel free to elaborate and change my mind guys.

It's appropriate for farfield (2m or more) in a typical space. It's not appropriate for near field or a room with very damped early reflections - the weighting changes between LW/SP/ER rather a lot for that kind of circumstance.

 

[Karmacoma]

Genelec has already done that, with no great success obviously:

Correct Monitors - Genelec.com

A monitor, by definition, observes, checks, controls, warns or keeps a continuous record of something. An audio monitor, studio monitor or monitoring speaker is more than just a good-sounding loudspeaker. It is a device used in the process of recording, mixing or broadcasting audio in any...

www.genelec.com

(Note, chart is about room volume at m³)

That doesn't answer my question, they talk about sound pressure level and sound radiation, that's pretty much it if I didn't miss anything, and that's taken into account in the model if I'm not wrong.
I'd qualify your answer as an argument from authority.

 

[Karmacoma]

It's appropriate for farfield (2m or more) in a typical space. It's not appropriate for near field or a room with very damped early reflections - the weighting changes between LW/SP/ER rather a lot for that kind of circumstance.

Doesn't answer my question.

 

[Sokel]

I'd qualify your answer as an argument of authority.

As is your right.
I take it as an excellent guide made from expertise and dense experience.

Far better than a random, internet Sokel.

About (the combined) charts (they don't stand on their own) , it's just about what anyone messing with rooms and speakers finds out down the road.
They just make this road a whole lot shorter.

 

[mj30250]

Perhaps it's more accurate to state that the farield prediction models are less useful for monitoring. If you're using studio monitors simply to listen for pleasure then they shift in application from monitors to "just" speakers.

 

[kharan]

Good point, OTOH, in case of some cardioid monitors, adding a sub will interfere with the cardioid principle I guess.
With this one, less so, because the effect does not reach low enough.

It really won't, the cardioid effect doesn't extend that far down. If you were using a big ME Geithain which cardioid response extends to the deep bass, it would interfere, but here the cardioid effect stops around 250 Hz. Way above when the sub takes over.

 

[illusonic]

Thanks, @Amir, I was going to ask if and when you were going to review the Orbits only to find you had just done so.

The passive cardoid seems to work beautifully down to 300 Hz. Having 4Pi behaviour below is certainly not good. I wonder why they didn't use the side woofers to incorporate an active cardoid down to 100 Hz or even lower and the option to select an 80 Hz high pass in the control panel. Nice as extension down to 25 Hz may be, distortion falls apart already at 50 Hz / 86 dB/1 m. Using them with a subwoofer, preferably a cardiod subwoofer or DBA is the way to go. Combine that with an active cardoid and get true excellence.

The midrange cannot handle 100Hz + cancellation by rear woofers for cardiod dispersion.

 

[Audionaut]

Yep, I never really understood why some feel the farfield in-room response model suddenly becomes inapropriate when it's used with monitors. If it's good it's good, no? Feel free to elaborate and change my mind guys.

No, you can do that.
I’ve built a lot of speakers that were very large, but with these ones—I call them Libum, short for “Little but mighty”—I wanted to achieve the highest possible sound pressure level, uniform sound dispersion, and a linear frequency response while keeping the dimensions as small as possible.

This is only possible if you separate the bass, meaning you build a sub-sat system.
I equipped these 8-inch coaxial speakers from the PA sector with a Hypex Plate Amp and use them starting at 80 Hz.

The bass range is handled by the ferrite version of this Beyma driver, the Beyma 18 lex 1200 fe.

The System can play up to about 120 dB, which I obviously don’t do, but thanks to their headroom, they exhibit very low distortion at the volumes I use.
The satellites are about the same size as the Palmer speakers, and sure, you can even use them in the Nearfield as a Monitor.

 

[dfuller]

Doesn't answer my question.

It doesn't automatically make it invalid - given it's pretty much never valid in the first place. the "PIR" is not a target curve as much as it is an output from a speaker's other characteristics. For nearfield, LW (12% in the farfield PIR model) has significantly more weight than it does for the farfield. ER and SP are heavily dominant (44% each) in farfield. It might be more like 33% of each (or somewhere in that ballpark) for nearfield.

For a heavily treated space, LW and SP predominate over ER because ER is so heavily damped.

No different from passives although these usually don't go to the same extremes as active low-frequecy speakers. One needs to provide enough power and cooling. Obviously high motor force for best possible sensitivity also helps. The GSS speakers are tiny and still produce astounding bass output. I've seen them in Munich High End show and in my memory they pumped out some serious bass for their size.

In most cases it is not the bass that generates the most heat in speaker voice coils but the midrange frequencies. So separate speakers (as in 3-ways) may help to keep heat low. Besides that, small enclosures translate to lower cost especially if these are made from aluminum. Logistics, storage and packaging costs all scale with size. And often smaller speakers have better WAF resulting in higher sales. So small speakers with deep bass have their place outside an audiophile cost no object bubble.

It is different from passives in the sense that taking a small box with smallish drivers and boosting its low end response requires much more power input and driver excursion, therefore limits the maximum SPL possible are run into rather than overall sensitivity. It's the other side of the same coin basically.