Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

[DanielT]

Ultra near field, you mean as in headphones?

With loudspeakers. But I, and I suspect most people, probably wouldn't go to that extreme and just pop on some headphones instead. @UltraNearFieldJock says in #42 of that thread:
Yes — Ultra‑Near‑Field (UNF) listening is a real and recognized audio approach.
And yes — it literally means listening only a few centimeters from the loudspeakers.
Below is a clear explanation based on verified sources:

Anyone has got or had an experience with ultra near field listening?

The arguments are very logical, and when I started the experiment, I had the same fears, and I was sceptical whether I would succeed in eliminating this disadvantage. But in retrospect, the 3D illusion after the fascinating, deep bass without room infusions in UNF is the greatest benefit and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[amirm]

Palmer puts a 250w amp in front of the tweeter, why?

You have measured them?

 

[olieb]

You have measured them?

That is what they give as spec.

So far their specs and measurements seem to be spot on. I don't see a reason to mistrust them here.

Interesting to compare to Genelec 8030 (50W) and KH120 (80/100W). Both competitors seem to have a dedicated tweeter amp (different power/specs compared to woofer amp).

 

[Oboreal]

The actual usable power is around 400 watts RMS. Peak ratings are mostly a marketing construct. If the advertised 500 watts + 2 × 250 watts peak is accurate, we can reasonably expect about 200 watts RMS for the bass, 100 watts RMS for the mids, and 100 watts RMS for the highs.

Assuming peak figures still carry some informational value, a speaker capable of delivering 116 dB SPL at 1 meter peak with 1000 watts peak amplification would imply a tweeter sensitivity of roughly 92 dB / 1W / 1m. That is relatively high for a studio monitor and could partly explain the slightly above‑average hiss

 

[Tovarich007]

With loudspeakers. But I, and I suspect most people, probably wouldn't go to that extreme and just pop on some headphones instead. @UltraNearFieldJock says in #42 of that thread:
Yes — Ultra‑Near‑Field (UNF) listening is a real and recognized audio approach.
And yes — it literally means listening only a few centimeters from the loudspeakers.
Below is a clear explanation based on verified sources:
View attachment 517045View attachment 517046

Anyone has got or had an experience with ultra near field listening?

The arguments are very logical, and when I started the experiment, I had the same fears, and I was sceptical whether I would succeed in eliminating this disadvantage. But in retrospect, the 3D illusion after the fascinating, deep bass without room infusions in UNF is the greatest benefit and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

A few centimeters only from the speakers ? But no speaker is designed to do this, so IMO it should sound a bit artificial.
And beware the SPL on peaks if you don't want to damage your audition.

I sometimes listen at around 60/70 cm from a pair of small cheap monitorsI putting the volume very low, and I don't find this super pleasant. Good to hear some details, but not a whole integrated sound content. I understand one can do this for some part of a mixing or editing, but for listening isn't at all the best way.

If you have to listen at only a few centimeters, i should be much worse. So way better to listen thru a good headphone.

 

[Tovarich007]

The actual usable power is around 400 watts RMS. Peak ratings are mostly a marketing construct. If the advertised 500 watts + 2 × 250 watts peak is accurate, we can reasonably expect about 200 watts RMS for the bass, 100 watts RMS for the mids, and 100 watts RMS for the highs.

Assuming peak figures still carry some informational value, a speaker capable of delivering 116 dB SPL at 1 meter peak with 1000 watts peak amplification would imply a tweeter sensitivity of roughly 92 dB / 1W / 1m. That is relatively high for a studio monitor and could partly explain the slightly above‑average hiss

Hiss isn't necessarely related to sensitivity and power. Some high powered and rather high sensitivity speakers have negligeable hiss, and some others with rather low power and sensiitivity have. If electronics are well designed, inherent hiss should be very low, hardly or not audible.

Palmer hasn't published the usable power of each of the three amplifiers (bass/mi/high), nor the peak power for each one, (I haven't seen these specs nowhere if my memory serves well) but only the whole power of the electronic module, . And we don't know the sensitivity of the drivers (which anyway isn't a super informative data for an active speaker).

So as long as we don't have these specs of power for each way, or - and even better- independent measurements, all is pure speculation based on abstract attempt of correlation.

So let's wait for Amir's measurements.

 

[Tolstoy]

I sent my orbits back to Thomann , to check and fix that hiss problem .
They sent them to Palmer .
I am very sure , that it is a production issue .
I think they would never have constructed such a refined monitor and then
accept such a noise level .
I keep you updated , when I get news from Palmer .

 

[dfuller]

That's because there is nothing between the amplifier output and tweeter in an active design. The crossover is before the amp. In a passive system, you have a crossover after the amp which introduces losses (on purpose and otherwise). That reduces the amount of noise the tweeter produces.

Lesson for folks who say every amplifier/DAC is transparent.

I think it can be said, IMO reasonably, that distortion is more easily ignored than noise. Distortion products 70dB down are probably not audible, but noise 70dB down may well be when the device is at idle.

 

[Bwaslo]

Yes of course I meant sensitivity.
But here is where I doubt, I remember reading that the tweeter having an amplifier rated at 250w, so why would they also need to have a very high sensitivity driver as well? And IF the tweeter have high sensitivity why would they need to have so much gain on the amplifier which in turn increases the noise?
All this especially since they are probably very well aware about the potential noise issues?

I wouldn't assume that all noise is coming from the tweeter. The midrange driver is also directly driven from an amplifier output, and if like most mids or modwoofers, it has plenty sensitivity at hiss frequencies. For instance, here's midwoofer used by Ascilab in C6B:

 

[daniboun]

I sent my orbits back to Thomann , to check and fix that hiss problem .
They sent them to Palmer .
I am very sure , that it is a production issue .
I think they would never have constructed such a refined monitor and then
accept such a noise level .
I keep you updated , when I get news from Palmer .

Here is the hiss assessment/measurement :

@3mm15s for explanation (seems not to be an issue) : Orbit 11 measurements

 

[levimax]

With all the modern measurement technology and instant communications of the internet and multiple first person accounts and the pooled wisdom and experience of ASR we still end up with answers ranging from "unuseable" and "defective" and "fatal flaw" to "inaudible" for what seems like a rather simple question of self noise level. I guess the old adage "The more things change the more they stay the same" is alive and well.

 

[daniboun]

With all the modern measurement technology and instant communications of the internet and multiple first person accounts and the pooled wisdom and experience of ASR we still end up with answers ranging from "unuseable" and "defective" and "fatal flaw" to "inaudible" for what seems like a rather simple question of self noise level. I guess the old adage "The more things change the more they stay the same" is alive and well.

If you are referring to the issue related to the hiss noise, is it a real false problem or a false real problem?

 

[Salt]

My Industry Standard Test (17 years old ears) can hear the hiss up to 30 cm (~ 1 foot) distance on tweater axis.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I wouldn't assume that all noise is coming from the tweeter. The midrange driver is also directly driven from an amplifier output, and if like most mids or modwoofers, it has plenty sensitivity at hiss frequencies. For instance, here's midwoofer used by Ascilab in C6B:
View attachment 517084

Yes but the crossover will make sure the mid/woofer isn't driven at those frequencies where breakup is evident

 

[Bwaslo]

Yes but the crossover will make sure the mid/woofer isn't driven at those frequencies where breakup is evident

It won't for the wideband noise generated or boosted by the amplifier (which is most of it).

The crossover exists earlier in the signal chain, so the amplifier's noise is not affected. What you say is true for a passive crossover that lies between amplifier and driver, but not for a purely active one.

 

[Bwaslo]

Yes but the crossover will make sure the mid/woofer isn't driven at those frequencies where breakup is evident

Also, hf noise energy from the midrange cone will tend to be very beamy and directional, which might relate to some hearing hiss and some not. Even at slightly off-axis, such noise getting out that way could be greatly lower.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Also, hf noise energy from the midrange cone will tend to be very beamy and directional, which might relate to some hearing hiss and some not. Even at slightly off-axis, such noise getting out that way could be greatly lower.

The most sensible thing to do would presumably be to bandwidth limit its amp if that is the problem..

 

[Bwaslo]

The most sensible thing to do would presumably be to bandwidth limit its amp if that is the problem..

Yup. Or put a simple single passive LC section filter on the midrange as part of its otherwise dsp filtering (easier than bandlimiting an.amp if it's not a custom design).

 

[Andreas007]

I've had bad experiences with speaker hiss. My hearing isn't the best in the high frequencies. But I once had a speaker that I thought was quite okay in terms of hiss. It was there, but from a certain distance (like 1 m) it was negligible—at least I thought so. Until the day my partner accidentally disconnected the entire system (no music was playing at the time) from the power supply with a switch. The speakers were more than 2 m away. And suddenly it was really (!) quiet in the room. It was truly amazing. We had become so accustomed to the quiet, barely perceptible, constant background noise that we no longer even noticed it. Shortly after this experience, I bought Neumann speakers – problem solved.

 

[delta76]

E

English:
You have been a (very) active ASR member for almost six years. It is a categorical indictment of your intellect and/or character that you still cannot interpret the measurements enough to answer these very basic questions.

Been here for 4+ year, still largely clueless about the graphs when it comes to compare speaker to speaker. Not everyone has enough interest to understand these in depth, nor they have to. There are things I know better which I am willing to share my knowledge/experience, and things I rely on other members to help me understand. That is the mean of community. Together we are wiser than each of us.
Can we be kinder to each other instead of being rude?