Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

[mariodorianc]

hello @amirm can you tell us please if you have new informations regarding when you will be able to fully review the Palmer Orbits 11?
thank you

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I've bought a pair of white Orbits from @Purité Audio and they should be with me by the end of the week. I'll be using them in my 4.4 system on a Denon 3800H and Dirac ART and A1 Evo Acoustix. I'll suspect I'll be experimenting with them all weekend. I am particularly interested in how they work with Dirac ART and I am going to be mindful of the distortion graphs I've seen below 100hz.

I am going to be doing some near field and MLP moving mic method measurements and I am interested in seeing how they compare to other measurements. I'll post my results on this thread.

 

[Downsideup]

Can someone that has the orbits cofirm.. my units make a very loud his very noticeable at aroun1.3m to 1.5m becomes annoying.. happens both ub the studio and at home.. i have al cable with ferrite bits, they all roland fron roland store and they worked well with the solo6 never had a his.. can someone tell if my units are faulty..

I have noticed some hiss in an ultra nearfield setting, with no pad: small room, on the dead side, Orbits at ears level, less than 1m, I definitely hear the hiss and would not keep them at that distance because of it, if it didn't have a pad.

Solution No1 : 1,5m no problem it seems ( for me), problematic only when I am IN the speakers. Solution No2 for ultra nearfield: use the pad.

When using pad, the hiss drops. It's sort of useless to have them fully open when sitting at 80cm. So I pad it down to manage levels and potential distraction from a little hiss.

When AES is selected, the hiss drops to at around to the most padded analog setting.

The noise perception is subjective, but still, I'm talking real speaker self-noise here: no cable connected.

 

[Salt]

Some quick and dirty measurement with audacity and UMIK-2 without calibration, distance to tweater 2 1/2 cm leveled with the famous orange ring:

 

[3125b]

aren't this group delay graphs looking worse than the one @stoneeh measured in his yt video for the orbits 11?

Those measurements in your screenshots don't seem accurate, or at least not without context.
There appears to be an offset, which might be the system latency?

If that is the latency, then adding 5ms the group delay of the 8331 would still exceed one cycle which seems quite a lot.

The 8C would have huge latency (but little group delay), that would be noticeable in use. Is it really that bad on a speaker that expensive?

 

[Joaquinín]

Those measurements in your screenshots don't seem accurate, or at least not without context.
There appears to be an offset, which might be the system latency?

If that is the latency, then adding 5ms the group delay of the 8331 would still exceed one cycle which seems quite a lot.

View attachment 515208

The 8C would have huge latency (but little group delay), that would be noticeable in use. Is it really that bad on a speaker that expensive?

Notice the Genelec 8331 has a linear phase option with much lower group delay (I think you need GLM to activate that).

 

[mariodorianc]

Those measurements in your screenshots don't seem accurate, or at least not without context.
There appears to be an offset, which might be the system latency?

If that is the latency, then adding 5ms the group delay of the 8331 would still exceed one cycle which seems quite a lot.

View attachment 515208

The 8C would have huge latency (but little group delay), that would be noticeable in use. Is it really that bad on a speaker that expensive?

they are from erin's reviews

 

[3125b]

they are from erin's reviews

Huh, well then they are accurate and just really bad.

 

[levimax]

10ms at 100hz is right at 1cycle, which is just beginning to be audible if we go by the 1.5 cycles is audible theory.

The audibility of group delay, especially at low frequencies, is not settled science. In addition the whole "1 to 1.5" cycles is nothing more than a rule of thumb without any rigorous testing. The safe assumption based on testing that is out there is that Group Delay by itself is not particularly audible and is more of an issue for subwoofer integration. In any case the group delay for the Orbit 11's is in no way alarming and in fact is quite well behaved for a small speaker and is not much different than some dedicated subs, see subwoofer test article link. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/

If you want flat group delay to <30 Hz you are going to need some very large (15" or 18" drivers in large enclosures) subs.... the average sub is not going to do it and it makes no sense to expect the Orbits to do it either.

 

[Salt]

So, Job done.
Some thoughts:
- @UffdiePalme might have provided some more sophisticated measurements as mine
- @amirm or anyone else should present a NFS asap

Until now, this speakers are ... what I never could imagine to build on my own ..

 

[amirm]

hello @amirm can you tell us please if you have new informations regarding when you will be able to fully review the Palmer Orbits 11?
thank you

I sent a reminder and the rep said he is going to check in with the US company. That's all I know.

 

[Salt]

And @Purité Audio claimed to send it to NFS, too.
So we're awaiting answers...

 

[BVK]

Looks like my pair will be back at Thomann tomorrow, so if anyone is looking to grab a pair, they should be up as B-stock soon if you want to play the F5 hitting game

 

[kemmler3D]

how do they compare to the Salon2?

Man, of course we have to ask this, but talk about an unfair comparison... Desktop monitor vs. 4-way Tower at 10x the price...

In other news I guess we've found the "catch" with these speakers... Relatively high self noise and maybe audible group delay/ phase distortion in the bass.

 

[Geert]

The audibility of group delay, especially at low frequencies, is not settled science.

If it’s audible, it's in low frequencies. We have a few topics about it 'Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (no*)' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...se-distortion-shift-matter-in-audio-no.24026/ and 'Audibility of group delay at low frequencies' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ility-of-group-delay-at-low-frequencies.8571/.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Weeks or months?

 

[levimax]

If it’s audible, it's in low frequencies. We have a few topics about it 'Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (no*)' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...se-distortion-shift-matter-in-audio-no.24026/ and 'Audibility of group delay at low frequencies' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ility-of-group-delay-at-low-frequencies.8571/.

Yes and if you follow and read those threads there is no consensus and no agreement even among the experts about the audibility thresholds of group delay which makes it very difficult to interpret group delay measurements and frustrating for a hobbyist to know where to spend money. It is easy enough to eliminate virtually all group delay with large subs (both large drivers and large enclosures). A big source of group delay is strong high pass protection filters for "too small an enclosure" consumer subs pushed with too much LF boost. The questions is, "is the juice worth the squeeze"?

 

[Ratterbass]

maybe audible group delay/ phase distortion in the bass.

I have yet to see speakers in this price bracket that do better. And even (much) more expensive ones. I wonder what the bar is here?

 

[Audionaut]

In other news I guess we've found the "catch" with these speakers... Relatively high self noise and maybe audible group delay/ phase distortion in the bass.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a catch, because every speaker is a compromise and you always have to choose which compromises to make and where to set your priorities.
In the case of the Palmer Orbit 11, you get a very well-rounded complete package at a very good price.
You don't need any power amplifiers, you have a point source, cardioid characteristics, and you get bass reproduction from this tiny enclosure that's like that of large floor-standing speakers. The fact that this amazing bass reproduction is then cited in this thread as a disadvantage for integration into living spaces shows in example what I mean when I say that you have to set priorities when choosing speakers and always make compromises.
You can't please everyone with one speaker.

 

[Pearljam5000]

At a similar price point it's hard to choose between KH120 II and Orbit 11