Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

[olieb]

Everyone reading this, please also suggest to me anything else you would like to know, so I can include it in the video, if possible. I will probably be putting it out within the next 2-3 days.

I do not know whether you have a second unit. It would be interesting to have (at least) a unit to unit comparison (FR on axis), even if this might be not conclusive. There has been a report (I know, a single one and subjective of course) about center phantom image being somewhat fuzzy. A bit surprising for a small coax, but FR deviations could be interesting in this context.
After all Palmer at this price has to make some compromise and a calibration of each unit probably is not possible.
This is something everybody with a pair and a mic could do, of course, but so far nobody did show a result.
If we had a few pairs measured that way (a 3ms gate would certainly suffice), this would start to be statistically interesting. And this is something not even Amir or Erin could do.

 

[goat76]

I do not know whether you have a second unit. It would be interesting to have (at least) a unit to unit comparison (FR on axis), even if this might be not conclusive. There has been a report (I know, a single one and subjective of course) about center phantom image being somewhat fuzzy. A bit surprising for a small coax, but FR deviations could be interesting in this context.
After all Palmer at this price has to make some compromise and a calibration of each unit probably is not possible.
This is something everybody with a pair and a mic could do, of course, but so far nobody did show a result.
If we had a few pairs measured that way (a 3ms gate would certainly suffice), this would start to be statistically interesting. And this is something not even Amir or Erin could do.

Yes, I think pair matching is an overlooked aspect, and a very important one when it comes to achieving a stable stereo image and phantom center.

 

[stoneeh]

I do not know whether you have a second unit. It would be interesting to have (at least) a unit to unit comparison (FR on axis), even if this might be not conclusive. There has been a report (I know, a single one and subjective of course) about center phantom image being somewhat fuzzy. A bit surprising for a small coax, but FR deviations could be interesting in this context.
After all Palmer at this price has to make some compromise and a calibration of each unit probably is not possible.
This is something everybody with a pair and a mic could do, of course, but so far nobody did show a result.
If we had a few pairs measured that way (a 3ms gate would certainly suffice), this would start to be statistically interesting. And this is something not even Amir or Erin could do.

Very good suggestion. I'd recommend this more as a community undertaking though than something specifically for me (I don't have a second unit anyway), since many owners should have the means to just measure their two speakers at the same place, with the mic at the same place. Even gating the measurement isn't important for that evaluation, since the room influence would be the same for both speakers, when placed exactly the same (in other words, a relative measurement as opposed to an absolute one).

 

[olieb]

I'd recommend this more as a community undertaking

Exactly my point.
In respect to gating, I would highly recommend it, as the room comb filter otherwise can do unpredictable things and a few centimetres can throw the result off. And gating is so simple and will make the result robust and even close to anechoic.
But if people post raw results, one could do whatever one wants, of course.

 

[Purité Audio]

Low end distortion

This is an often stated misapprehension, there are many factors not least how the cardioid response is generated.
Jinsung from AsciLab was asked the same question.
Quote.
‘That range (under 100Hz) is not cardioid range. The main reason of the distortion is based on Xmax like as other speakers.



If I make the beam width more tight and control deeper range then the distortion might be higher. More deep and tight directivity needs more cancel.



In this case C8C doesn’t lose much SPL due to optimal driver placement and proper electrical delay. So only 1 or 2dB is lost around 100Hz. Therefore, the rising distortion is not related with cardioid feature.



But the passive cardioid design is different.

Usually there are a lot of odd harmonics of passive cardioid design. The main reason of odd harmonics of passive cardioid is related with hysteresis distortion through the cardioid hole. The sound pressure through the hole has much of distortion and it is added to total distortion.



You can see similar distortion effect in D&D 8C and Shivaudyo Point Zero. (Sorry for mentioning specific models, it’s for examples)



Good cardioid pattern is made by proper physical delay and electrical delay. More leaning on electrical delay, there will lose more SPL, more leaning on physical delay, there will be a lot of lobbing. All is about compromising.’’
Keith

 

[JohnnyNG]

This is so amazing, awestruck by the video and setup. Like a clandestine STOL strip for tiny smugglers. Or a toppled forest monolith.

 

[kharan]

Considering how much smaller the speaker is, this is even more impressive.

1 m in half space?

Look at that comparison with KH

 

[TimVG]

RE slightly narrowing directivity @~1,5kHz. I previously suggested this could be in part due to the behaviour of the slots, and going by the measurements it seems this may be the case.

 

[olieb]

RE slightly narrowing directivity @~1,5kHz. I previously suggested this could be in part due to the behaviour of the slots, and going by the measurements it seems this may be the case.

Good catch!
It seems the side slot (at least the measured one) has some kind of resonance around 1.5kHz and narrows the beam [The top slot seems to lack the resonance.]. Maybe some extra Basotect could make things even better.

EDIT: picture with near field measurements of "sound sources" by @stoneeh

 

[Matt_Holland]

Good catch!
It seems the side slot (at least the measured one) has some kind of resonance around 1.5kHz and narrows the beam [The top slot seems to lack the resonance.]. Maybe some extra Basotect could make things even better.

This is really interesting and potentially very valuable feedback for the manufacturer.
I’d happily sacrifice some cardioid effect for a smoother DI if an improvement to the current design is possible.

 

[TimVG]

It's, in my experience with building/testing passive cardioids systems, part of the deal so to say. The best solution is having a lower crossover which is likely not feasable or a worse compromise here. In my own testing the slight narrowing is a much better compromise than the collapsing polar (or should I say exploding) of 'normal' forward firing speakers.

 

[Bwaslo]

Has Palmer revealed the crossover point between tweeter and midrange?

 

[TimVG]

Has Palmer revealed the crossover point between tweeter and midrange?

1.8kHz. I suspect 4th order LR.

 

[caught gesture]

@stoneeh thanks for your testing and then posting. A really comprehensive and detailed look at the specs of this speaker. Complimenti on your methodology and presentation!

 

[Bwaslo]

1.8kHz. I suspect 4th order LR.

Too bad they couldn't push the crossover point lower like Ascilab, might have avoided some of the narrowing. Guessing the tweeter driver or waveguide didn't allow that.

Though I really doubt that the narrowing is really much of a problem at least for my use.

 

[Oink-Oinko]

This is an often stated misapprehension, there are many factors not how the cardioid response is generated.
Jinsung from AsciLab was asked the same question.
Quote.
‘That range (under 100Hz) is not cardioid range. The main reason of the distortion is based on Xmax like as other speakers.



If I make the beam width more tight and control deeper range then the distortion might be higher. More deep and tight directivity needs more cancel.



In this case C8C doesn’t lose much SPL due to optimal driver placement and proper electrical delay. So only 1 or 2dB is lost around 100Hz. Therefore, the rising distortion is not related with cardioid feature.



But the passive cardioid design is different.

Usually there are a lot of odd harmonics of passive cardioid design. The main reason of odd harmonics of passive cardioid is related with hysteresis distortion through the cardioid hole. The sound pressure through the hole has much of distortion and it is added to total distortion.



You can see similar distortion effect in D&D 8C and Shivaudyo Point Zero. (Sorry for mentioning specific models, it’s for examples)



Good cardioid pattern is made by proper physical delay and electrical delay. More leaning on electrical delay, there will lose more SPL, more leaning on physical delay, there will be a lot of lobbing. All is about compromising.
Keith

The topic is a bit more clear with this explanation, and I personally had more or less a notion of the xmas, but not the active/passive variation.
but now at least everyone is on the same page in understanding.

 

[sidechain]

At this point, due to multiple requests for more datapoints / information on various platforms, I have decided to post a follow-up video on the original review.

On the list so far:

- full CTA-2034, per your request
- impact of the on-board EQ
- power draw in idle and in a possible standby mode (if it has one)
- heat generation of the amp module, measured with infrared pistol (thermal camera would be ideal, but I don't have one)
- attempt to quantify hiss (will be tough, since it will lie somewhere near the noisefloor of my measurement chain)

After that, I will post the source files for the turntable measurement here (if NFS data hasn't dropped yet by that point) - deal?

Everyone reading this, please also suggest to me anything else you would like to know, so I can include it in the video, if possible. I will probably be putting it out within the next 2-3 days.

Can you precisely measure the inner and outer diameter of the orange ring for a vinyl wrap template?

 

[cammyt]

At this point, due to multiple requests for more datapoints / information on various platforms, I have decided to post a follow-up video on the original review.

On the list so far:

- full CTA-2034, per your request
- impact of the on-board EQ
- power draw in idle and in a possible standby mode (if it has one)
- heat generation of the amp module, measured with infrared pistol (thermal camera would be ideal, but I don't have one)
- attempt to quantify hiss (will be tough, since it will lie somewhere near the noisefloor of my measurement chain)

After that, I will post the source files for the turntable measurement here (if NFS data hasn't dropped yet by that point) - deal?

Everyone reading this, please also suggest to me anything else you would like to know, so I can include it in the video, if possible. I will probably be putting it out within the next 2-3 days.

Could you show:

1. the spectrogram view of burst decay
2. any sort of compression measurements
3. FR from 15 or 30 deg off-axis in horizontal to mitigate coax on-axis bump between 15-20khz (Burst decay from this angle would be bonus as well)

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Erin's Audio Corner measures multi tone distortion with everything below 80 hz rolled off. If you could duplicate that somehow, it would be nice, and would give an idea how much louder the Palmer could play with a sub crossed over at 80 hz.

 

[h2opt]

Looks like Orbit 11 is sold out everywhere, on Thomann it says back in stock in 13 weeks.