Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

[goat76]

I would also expect it to sound a tad recessed in the lower mids or forward in the lower treble, depending on how you want to say it.

If so, what could be the reason for that? Is a possible reason that the cardioid may be a little bit too effective in that lower mid region?

I wonder what that lower region would look like in the measurements if the cardioid vents were covered, either on all sides or just the top and bottom vents. I'm obviously just curious about this, as I have no deeper technical knowledge of these things.

 

[olieb]

This is the difference in frequency response from analog (normal behavior, used for the measurements in the video) to AES via my S/PDIF interface:

Now, this is awkward. I thought the AES were not working, maybe because of the SPDIF level being too low, but this looks like a high shelf filter is engaged. Perhaps @UffdiePalme can clear things up?

 

[Bwaslo]

Mirror sound source of the surface adds 6 dB SPL with GPM vs. a free air measurement, double the distance reduces 6 dB - hence, GPM 2m equals 4pi 1m.

This has been empirically demonstrated all the way back to 1980, via Mark Gander's original work on the ground plane measurement technique, which I referenced in the video description and was hoping would be read if something was unclear.

Someone conveniently uploaded the PDF here on ASR -> GROUND PLANE ACOUSTIC MEASUREMENT OF LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM - Gander, AES, 1980. Figure 5 displays the measurement of a speaker suspended in air (essentially 4pi) at 1m distance, figure 8 displays the ground plane measurement at 2m distance; the curves essentially match.

Got it, thanks. Forgot about it being ground plane.

 

[Torinoscale]

Awesome work on the review, very helpful and as others have said, this seems like as much as one can do without a klippel. And nice job getting the scoop on independent robust measurements of this one.

To my eye I don't think this speaker is "perfect" - (but damn if they didn't get close with their first monitor)... the constant directivity isn't truly constant (although I've yet to see a graph of "CD" that I couldn't nitpick) and I would also expect it to sound a tad recessed in the lower mids or forward in the lower treble, depending on how you want to say it. That said, I was kind of expecting there to be more of a catch to this deal. The distortion looks quite impressive given the size and the overall frequency response is hard to criticize beyond it not having much of a slope down.

Since you can easily EQ in a downward tilt if you want it without fighting any of the (barely extant) directivity error, I don't see that as a reason to think twice...

My wife is going to be pissed, but I really can't help but think of getting a pair now... the "but these ones are white and look nicer" angle has worked before. We'll see...

Will totally go for that angle as well

 

[Ogremic]

Will totally go for that angle as well

That angle hasn't worked on mine. I tried. "white?? All your studio hardware is black, it will be too different. Also all your other TV speakers and subwoofer are also black (they are on the same wall as my studio monitors) the TV is also a black slab on the wall!". So if I can emerge from the negotiation unscathed, black version will be!

 

[TimVG]

Hello ASR.

This is my in-depth review of the Palmer Orbit 11.

Contents:

- measurements of on and off axis frequency response, phase, decay behavior, harmonic distortion, multitone distortion, maximum SPL in free field environment, ...
- preset comparison
- comparison to manufacturer data
- measurement comparisons to other speakers
- sound sample (with music)
- practical impressions
- and more

Information / disclaimers:

- the speaker was purchased new, not loaned or a test sample.
- if you see an ad on this video, it is from the music copyright holder. My YT channel is not monetized as of this date; I do not receive any monetary gain from it.

Enjoy!

Many thanks for your effort! Would you be willing to share a full spin* (or +/- 180° measurements)?

*Since the polar pattern won't vary much in the vertical with it being a coaxial, it shouldn't be too far from reality.

 

[Geert]

One of them, not yet tested on ASR, is in my immediate vicinity.

'SPL Phonitor X *Updated* Review (DAC & Headphone Amp)' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-x-updated-review-dac-headphone-amp.27479/

'SPL Volume8 Review' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/spl-volume8-review.34870/

 

[stoneeh]

Many thanks for your effort! Would you be willing to share a full spin* (or +/- 180° measurements)?

You're welcome.

I assume you are asking for full CTA/CEA-2034 data, not just the "reduced" version with on-axis, predicted in-room, and sound power DI that I used in the video? Or are you asking for the source data?

*Since the polar pattern won't vary much in the vertical with it being a coaxial, it shouldn't be too far from reality.

Agreed with that assessment.

 

[JoeDiMEG]

720 € seems reasonable for Adam Hall (Palmer, LD systems ...)

They don't have the big name yet in the studio monitor scene.

The LD systems Coax ICOA 15 (active) is under 500 €. Works fine as PA and in Homecinemas:

LD Systems ICOA 15 A - 15" Aktiver koaxialer PA-Lautsprecher

Pro Lighting e.K. Professionelle Licht- Ton- & Effekttechnik

www.prolighting.de

KR

 

[Tovarich007]

Hypex is also a small medium-sized company.
Yes, excellence does not depend on the number of employees, but on their potential.
I just wanted to point out that they do not have unlimited funds and financial resources.

PS
Just for fun, here are a few of the big players in the audio and consumer electronics market for comparison.

Samsung Electronics employs around 260,000 people and generates annual sales of over USD 300 billion; its audio subsidiary Harman International has around 30,000 employees and sales of around USD 10 billion.
Apple Inc. has approximately 160,000 employees and sales of over USD 400 billion. Sony Group Corporation employs around 110,000 people and has a turnover of around USD 90 billion.
LG Electronics has approximately 75,000 employees and a turnover of over USD 60 billion.
Yamaha Corporation has around 28,000 employees and an annual turnover of a few billion USD.

My opinion on this question is that comparing sizes of companies isn't relevant.

These very large companies design and produce a lot of products. The audio pro and hifi are only a small part of their turnover - except for Harman, but connected items, earbuds and fashion electronic products are now Harman's growing source of profits, and not high end hifi or high range pro products.

Except for semiconductors, chips, smartphones, mass market products and software development, where size usually matters, it's a fact that a majority of innovations in the audio industry has been made by small or medium size companies (or by special departments inside big groups who usually are relatively autonomous inside these large groups).

Small and medium size companies have limited resources of course, but they have the ability to focus their brain on R&D and quality control, and they generally rely on a network of substractors, in general themselves small or medium size companies, who share the same philosophy. That's why they are able to design excellent products.

As for Palmer, it's mainly a commercial brand inside Adam Hall group, which isn't a small audio group in the european audio industry composed mainly of middle size companies - for example, Genelec has a little bit more of 200 employees, that's not so big for a major leader in audio industry.
The resources of Adam Hall are used for their different brands, including Palmer of course. So point out Palmer size in itself isn't at all relevant.
In the end, comparing size of such different companies and groups isn't relevant.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Durian good, cheap good-performing speakers great

 

[TimVG]

I assume you are asking for full CTA/CEA-2034 data, not just the "reduced" version with on-axis, predicted in-room, and sound power DI that I used in the video? Or are you asking for the source data?

Correct. +/-180°H would be preferred (in a Vituixcad compatible format if possible). This way we can make a full spin but also look at the off-axis behaviour in more detail. I'm particularly interested in the sidewall reflection average. But if you don't feel like sharing, no hard feelings of course.

 

[TimVG]

Oh, and did you by any chance also check the 3 band EQ filters and their effect (since you measured the other presets)?

 

[Audionaut]

My opinion on this question is that comparing sizes of companies isn't relevant.

Yes, I completely agree with you, and as far as I'm concerned, we can happily leave this unimportant line of discussion in this thread.
My core message is actually: "Dear, valued, and wonderful developers at small and medium-sized audio companies such as Hypex, Palmer, Purifi, AsciLab, and so on > you are doing a great job."
Keep up the good work.

 

[stoneeh]

Correct. +/-180°H would be preferred (in a Vituixcad compatible format if possible). This way we can make a full spin but also look at the off-axis behaviour in more detail. I'm particularly interested in the sidewall reflection average. But if you don't feel like sharing, no hard feelings of course.

Oh, and did you by any chance also check the 3 band EQ filters and their effect (since you measured the other presets)?

At this point, due to multiple requests for more datapoints / information on various platforms, I have decided to post a follow-up video on the original review.

On the list so far:

- full CTA-2034, per your request
- impact of the on-board EQ
- power draw in idle and in a possible standby mode (if it has one)
- heat generation of the amp module, measured with infrared pistol (thermal camera would be ideal, but I don't have one)
- attempt to quantify hiss (will be tough, since it will lie somewhere near the noisefloor of my measurement chain)

After that, I will post the source files for the turntable measurement here (if NFS data hasn't dropped yet by that point) - deal?

Everyone reading this, please also suggest to me anything else you would like to know, so I can include it in the video, if possible. I will probably be putting it out within the next 2-3 days.

 

[TimVG]

Sounds great, thank you! I have a pair at home, but not sure when I'll be able to set them up. I had suspected since obviously they went to great lengths in terms of acoustic design, that the measurements would be quite good as well and it's good to see this confirmed.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Are there any downsides to cardiod?

Looking for excuses not to buy?

 

[DanielT]

Superbly done stoneeh.Thanks for your test.

Superb speakers at a, I suspect, sweetspot price for many hifi enthusiasts.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Looking for excuses not to buy?

Lol

 

[Ogremic]

Dude, it's ok not to buy stuff, we all get excited about some gadget or whatever at some point and swear we're gonna purchase, and then we get rational and don't. But you're on this journey of finding out the perfectest speaker there is... and that is not real. Even the best has flaws, ignoring the price, and most importantly, the room you're using them in is gonna have a bigger influence than the fact that it's cardioid, or it has x or y dB variation in liniarity or whatever reason you'll find to not like them. A normal room can have more than 20dB swings in either direction, and reflections so big that it drowns the microdetails that the speaker can present, so if you're looking for a ruler flat speaker, better invest a heck a lot more into taming those.