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Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

bumblebee657 said:
Regarding the fingerprints again: I know it's not a catastrophe in itself. Nevertheless, I expect something different from a new product. Once, 30+ years ago as a student, I did an internship at a factory that, among other things, manufactured industrial lighting. I was assembling these lights and, out of ignorance, left fingerprints. I got the dressing-down of my life, and the lights had to be repaired. These speakers were covered all over with fingerprints.
Click to expand...
When I was young I used to scoff at older people who were freaking out about (what I thought were inconsequential) QC issues.
And now I've become that older guy yelling about QC issues. How the tables have turned.
 
I received mine today and unfortunately they're going back.

First of all I must emphasize that everything I'm about to write is 100% subjective and I don't have any measurements to share, except that of my room which would be of no use and not fair towards the Orbits. Take everything I say with a grain of salt and a healthy pinch of scepticism. For context, my day gig is being the audio engineer of a concert hall and I also work as a freelance studio engineer. 99% of my freelance work these days is album mastering, for which I've been looking to upgrade my monitoring. I have owned quite a few monitors, including Focal Twins, Dynaudio BM15s and such, and I've currently got a pair of Genelec 8030s with a Dynaudio 9S sub and Dirac room correction. I work in a small-ish room of 13 square meters. It's reasonably well treated, the positioning is meticulously calculated and measured and the frequency response is in the +/-5dB range with a pretty decent waterfall and RT60 graph. It's not perfect, but it's definitely good enough for critical work. The monitors are 1,6 meters away from me, so it's right between near and midfield.

I spent the morning listening to my current setup so I had it in fresh memory. I then replaced the 8030s with the Orbits in the exact same positioning, disconnected the sub and turned off Dirac. The first thing I noticed was the ridiculous bass extension. It really is pretty remarkable for speakers this size, and without measuring I estimated they've got no trouble going to mid-20Hz very cleanly at around 82dB C slow which is on the top range of my normal working volume. The next good thing is the dispersion, they do handle it very well as expected. Now, to the bad. My first impression right after the Genelecs was that although the low end is on a completely different level, the Orbits are nowhere near as detailed and analytical. I really wanted to be blown away, but unfortunately not this time. At this point I fired up REW and took measurements. I got the best results with the rear wall compensation in the second position, and the measurements confirmed that they do go down to 24Hz without any struggle. If your room allows it and you use them mainly for music, you really don't need a sub with the Orbits, which is really impressive.

I then fired up Dirac, made the measurements, re-measured with REW, did my usual adjustments to the target curve (+1,5dB shelf below 100Hz, -0,5dB at 2,4kHz as that's what usually works for me) and gave them another chance. Unfortunately still not impressed. The clarity, punch and stereo image of the 8030s with a sub is just on another level for me. I can pinpoint problems way better with the small 8030's which is a must for my field of work. Spotting things like digital artifacts, distortion where it's unwanted and such is a major part of what I do. Weirdly enough, the Genelecs also excited me quite a bit more, which is usually on the contrary - the more analytical speakers being the less enjoyable to listen to. I spent some time going through my reference albums, after which I decided it wasn't worth the hassle to start integrating the sub into the setup, as the Orbits just weren't for me. I then packed them up somewhat beaten and put the Genelecs back up and checked the same albums just to make sure. Yeah, no question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good. They might be perfect for everyone else and measure really well, but after having had the pleasure of working on a lot of different setups from cheap cans to six figure line arrays, this once again reminded me of how personal the choice of monitors is. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't love the Orbits, but on the positive side I was glad to be reminded of how much punch the Genelecs pack for their size and price. Oh well, the search goes on, but for now I'm more than happy going back to my original setup! :)

PS. Regarding the orange ring, while it doesn't bother me, I think it would be rather hard to cover it completely with something 3D printed without getting in the way of the mid driver surrounds. It's tight.
 
BVK said:
I received mine today and unfortunately they're going back.

First of all I must emphasize that everything I'm about to write is 100% subjective and I don't have any measurements to share, except that of my room which would be of no use and not fair towards the Orbits. Take everything I say with a grain of salt and a healthy pinch of scepticism. For context, my day gig is being the audio engineer of a concert hall and I also work as a freelance studio engineer. 99% of my freelance work these days is album mastering, for which I've been looking to upgrade my monitoring. I have owned quite a few monitors, including Focal Twins, Dynaudio BM15s and such, and I've currently got a pair of Genelec 8030s with a Dynaudio 9S sub and Dirac room correction. I work in a small-ish room of 13 square meters. It's reasonably well treated, the positioning is meticulously calculated and measured and the frequency response is in the +/-5dB range with a pretty decent waterfall and RT60 graph. It's not perfect, but it's definitely good enough for critical work. The monitors are 1,6 meters away from me, so it's right between near and midfield.

I spent the morning listening to my current setup so I had it in fresh memory. I then replaced the 8030s with the Orbits in the exact same positioning, disconnected the sub and turned off Dirac. The first thing I noticed was the ridiculous bass extension. It really is pretty remarkable for speakers this size, and without measuring I estimated they've got no trouble going to mid-20Hz very cleanly at around 82dB C slow which is on the top range of my normal working volume. The next good thing is the dispersion, they do handle it very well as expected. Now, to the bad. My first impression right after the Genelecs was that although the low end is on a completely different level, the Orbits are nowhere near as detailed and analytical. I really wanted to be blown away, but unfortunately not this time. At this point I fired up REW and took measurements. I got the best results with the rear wall compensation in the second position, and the measurements confirmed that they do go down to 24Hz without any struggle. If your room allows it and you use them mainly for music, you really don't need a sub with the Orbits, which is really impressive.

I then fired up Dirac, made the measurements, re-measured with REW, did my usual adjustments to the target curve (+1,5dB shelf below 100Hz, -0,5dB at 2,4kHz as that's what usually works for me) and gave them another chance. Unfortunately still not impressed. The clarity, punch and stereo image of the 8030s with a sub is just on another level for me. I can pinpoint problems way better with the small 8030's which is a must for my field of work. Spotting things like digital artifacts, distortion where it's unwanted and such is a major part of what I do. Weirdly enough, the Genelecs also excited me quite a bit more, which is usually on the contrary - the more analytical speakers being the less enjoyable to listen to. I spent some time going through my reference albums, after which I decided it wasn't worth the hassle to start integrating the sub into the setup, as the Orbits just weren't for me. I then packed them up somewhat beaten and put the Genelecs back up and checked the same albums just to make sure. Yeah, no question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good. They might be perfect for everyone else and measure really well, but after having had the pleasure of working on a lot of different setups from cheap cans to six figure line arrays, this once again reminded me of how personal the choice of monitors is. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't love the Orbits, but on the positive side I was glad to be reminded of how much punch the Genelecs pack for their size and price. Oh well, the search goes on, but for now I'm more than happy going back to my original setup! :)

PS. Regarding the orange ring, while it doesn't bother me, I think it would be rather hard to cover it completely with something 3D printed without getting in the way of the mid driver surrounds. It's tight.
Click to expand...
I really appreciate your opinion. My setup is very similar to yours: a home studio with pretty decent acoustic treatment and a Dirac Live. I also do mixing and mastering. I currently have Focal Shape 65s; I'm very happy with them and wanted to add a subwoofer, but then the Orbit 11s came out and really surprised me (like everyone else).

I was going to buy them, but I'll wait for more opinions and reviews. Thanks!
 
denork said:
I really appreciate your opinion. My setup is very similar to yours: a home studio with pretty decent acoustic treatment and a Dirac Live. I also do mixing and mastering. I currently have Focal Shape 65s; I'm very happy with them and wanted to add a subwoofer, but then the Orbit 11s came out and really surprised me (like everyone else).

I was going to buy them, but I'll wait for more opinions and reviews. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Bear in mind a lot of people consider Genelecs harsh or fatiguing, so your mileage may vary. That being said I've owned and worked on Focal Alpha 65's and Twin 6 BE's and I did enjoy both, so who knows :D
 
BVK said:
I received mine today and unfortunately they're going back.

First of all I must emphasize that everything I'm about to write is 100% subjective and I don't have any measurements to share, except that of my room which would be of no use and not fair towards the Orbits. Take everything I say with a grain of salt and a healthy pinch of scepticism. For context, my day gig is being the audio engineer of a concert hall and I also work as a freelance studio engineer. 99% of my freelance work these days is album mastering, for which I've been looking to upgrade my monitoring. I have owned quite a few monitors, including Focal Twins, Dynaudio BM15s and such, and I've currently got a pair of Genelec 8030s with a Dynaudio 9S sub and Dirac room correction. I work in a small-ish room of 13 square meters. It's reasonably well treated, the positioning is meticulously calculated and measured and the frequency response is in the +/-5dB range with a pretty decent waterfall and RT60 graph. It's not perfect, but it's definitely good enough for critical work. The monitors are 1,6 meters away from me, so it's right between near and midfield.

I spent the morning listening to my current setup so I had it in fresh memory. I then replaced the 8030s with the Orbits in the exact same positioning, disconnected the sub and turned off Dirac. The first thing I noticed was the ridiculous bass extension. It really is pretty remarkable for speakers this size, and without measuring I estimated they've got no trouble going to mid-20Hz very cleanly at around 82dB C slow which is on the top range of my normal working volume. The next good thing is the dispersion, they do handle it very well as expected. Now, to the bad. My first impression right after the Genelecs was that although the low end is on a completely different level, the Orbits are nowhere near as detailed and analytical. I really wanted to be blown away, but unfortunately not this time. At this point I fired up REW and took measurements. I got the best results with the rear wall compensation in the second position, and the measurements confirmed that they do go down to 24Hz without any struggle. If your room allows it and you use them mainly for music, you really don't need a sub with the Orbits, which is really impressive.

I then fired up Dirac, made the measurements, re-measured with REW, did my usual adjustments to the target curve (+1,5dB shelf below 100Hz, -0,5dB at 2,4kHz as that's what usually works for me) and gave them another chance. Unfortunately still not impressed. The clarity, punch and stereo image of the 8030s with a sub is just on another level for me. I can pinpoint problems way better with the small 8030's which is a must for my field of work. Spotting things like digital artifacts, distortion where it's unwanted and such is a major part of what I do. Weirdly enough, the Genelecs also excited me quite a bit more, which is usually on the contrary - the more analytical speakers being the less enjoyable to listen to. I spent some time going through my reference albums, after which I decided it wasn't worth the hassle to start integrating the sub into the setup, as the Orbits just weren't for me. I then packed them up somewhat beaten and put the Genelecs back up and checked the same albums just to make sure. Yeah, no question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good. They might be perfect for everyone else and measure really well, but after having had the pleasure of working on a lot of different setups from cheap cans to six figure line arrays, this once again reminded me of how personal the choice of monitors is. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't love the Orbits, but on the positive side I was glad to be reminded of how much punch the Genelecs pack for their size and price. Oh well, the search goes on, but for now I'm more than happy going back to my original setup! :)

PS. Regarding the orange ring, while it doesn't bother me, I think it would be rather hard to cover it completely with something 3D printed without getting in the way of the mid driver surrounds. It's tight.
Click to expand...
I really agree about the stereo imaging. With the Genelecs everything has its' place. From left to right, from front to back. And while I perceive the Palmer as very direct and upfront, everything happens between me and the speakers. There no sound extension behind the speakers (like with the Genelecs). It lacks depth. Also if a voice is preciely centered between the speakers with the Genelecs, it feels much wider with the Palmer (which is maybe why I feel it has more "body"). They have that "Bang" affect when you listen to them, but I'm not sure how much I would enjoy that in the long run.
 
It sounds like what's being described could be attributed to dispersion if the Palmer was wider, but if they are it's not by a lot.
 
Funny how perceptions can be different, but while the 8030 is a good speaker (I have them in my living room), I find them too flattering for mixing, and while there is nothing wrong with their soundstage, for me there is nothing remarkable either. It's a very good, enjoyable compact speaker though - but analytical is not how I would describe them.
 
BVK said:
I received mine today and unfortunately they're going back.

First of all I must emphasize that everything I'm about to write is 100% subjective and I don't have any measurements to share, except that of my room which would be of no use and not fair towards the Orbits. Take everything I say with a grain of salt and a healthy pinch of scepticism. For context, my day gig is being the audio engineer of a concert hall and I also work as a freelance studio engineer. 99% of my freelance work these days is album mastering, for which I've been looking to upgrade my monitoring. I have owned quite a few monitors, including Focal Twins, Dynaudio BM15s and such, and I've currently got a pair of Genelec 8030s with a Dynaudio 9S sub and Dirac room correction. I work in a small-ish room of 13 square meters. It's reasonably well treated, the positioning is meticulously calculated and measured and the frequency response is in the +/-5dB range with a pretty decent waterfall and RT60 graph. It's not perfect, but it's definitely good enough for critical work. The monitors are 1,6 meters away from me, so it's right between near and midfield.

I spent the morning listening to my current setup so I had it in fresh memory. I then replaced the 8030s with the Orbits in the exact same positioning, disconnected the sub and turned off Dirac. The first thing I noticed was the ridiculous bass extension. It really is pretty remarkable for speakers this size, and without measuring I estimated they've got no trouble going to mid-20Hz very cleanly at around 82dB C slow which is on the top range of my normal working volume. The next good thing is the dispersion, they do handle it very well as expected. Now, to the bad. My first impression right after the Genelecs was that although the low end is on a completely different level, the Orbits are nowhere near as detailed and analytical. I really wanted to be blown away, but unfortunately not this time. At this point I fired up REW and took measurements. I got the best results with the rear wall compensation in the second position, and the measurements confirmed that they do go down to 24Hz without any struggle. If your room allows it and you use them mainly for music, you really don't need a sub with the Orbits, which is really impressive.

I then fired up Dirac, made the measurements, re-measured with REW, did my usual adjustments to the target curve (+1,5dB shelf below 100Hz, -0,5dB at 2,4kHz as that's what usually works for me) and gave them another chance. Unfortunately still not impressed. The clarity, punch and stereo image of the 8030s with a sub is just on another level for me. I can pinpoint problems way better with the small 8030's which is a must for my field of work. Spotting things like digital artifacts, distortion where it's unwanted and such is a major part of what I do. Weirdly enough, the Genelecs also excited me quite a bit more, which is usually on the contrary - the more analytical speakers being the less enjoyable to listen to. I spent some time going through my reference albums, after which I decided it wasn't worth the hassle to start integrating the sub into the setup, as the Orbits just weren't for me. I then packed them up somewhat beaten and put the Genelecs back up and checked the same albums just to make sure. Yeah, no question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good. They might be perfect for everyone else and measure really well, but after having had the pleasure of working on a lot of different setups from cheap cans to six figure line arrays, this once again reminded me of how personal the choice of monitors is. I'm a bit bummed that I didn't love the Orbits, but on the positive side I was glad to be reminded of how much punch the Genelecs pack for their size and price. Oh well, the search goes on, but for now I'm more than happy going back to my original setup! :)

PS. Regarding the orange ring, while it doesn't bother me, I think it would be rather hard to cover it completely with something 3D printed without getting in the way of the mid driver surrounds. It's tight.
Click to expand...
It's a bit fast to make a choice, if I were you while you have the chance to have them I'd stick to it for a couple of days. Just to even all those pinches of salt.
 
knowing it could reach <30hz is pretty cool in this price range. don't even know if there's anything similar right now. crossing a 15 inch sub place at your feet at 30hz and playing big bad john should be great
 
Karmacoma said:
It's a bit fast to make a choice, if I were you while you have the chance to have them I'd stick to it for a couple of days. Just to even all those pinches of salt.
Click to expand...
I can absolutely see your point, but I've got a pretty solid preference regarding what I need to hear and I'm pretty confident in being able to make up my mind after a couple of hours. I really didn't want to sound too harsh towards the Orbits as it really is pretty subjective, but let's just say it was pretty clear to me that I don't want to make the switch from the Genelecs. For someone else they might well be an upgrade, especially considering the monstrous bass extension. This isn't to say I'm a huge fanboy of the 8030s either, they were just the right size and price at the time of purchase and something I felt comfortable working with.
 
Karmacoma said:
It's a bit fast to make a choice, if I were you while you have the chance to have them I'd stick to it for a couple of days. Just to even all those pinches of salt.
Click to expand...
Yeah, when coming from a already high bar like Genelec 2.1 calibrated the Orbits wont blow you away, that might come when upgrading from a lower quality system
 
dasherzx said:
knowing it could reach <30hz is pretty cool in this price range. don't even know if there's anything similar right now.
Click to expand...
Only the Focal Evo Twin comes to mind, but frequency response is a mess, directivity is compromised by the MTM layout, and it lacks phase correction.
 
Ogremic said:
Yeah, when coming from a already high bar like Genelec 2.1 calibrated the Orbits wont blow you away, that might come when upgrading be from a lower priced system
Click to expand...
I agree. While we are talking about middle range setups, it really is a tough price point to outshine the competition. I do believe the Orbits can be a great choice for someone who doesn't want the hassle of integrating subwoofers to their system.

To be fair, I really have to emphasize the effect of the room and the fact that I've been pretty obsessive with getting mine to the point I'm happy with it. It's absolutely not a trivial task and it makes a huge difference, way more than two pairs of even remotely similar quality speakers.
 
I think most of the differences in imaging described here are due to the fact that these are both coaxial and cardioid - that will make them sound different in-room compared to conventional speakers even if they both measure flat on-axis.

QC issues aside*, you'll probably need a few hours to get used to them.


*The coaxial driver should definitely not be off center that much, I would imagine that would even be measurable in the frequency response and you should return that speaker. Looking at my KEF R5 they're pretty much perfect with a generally smaller gap between the tweeter surround and the midrange membrane. KEF makes a lot of coaxial drive units, they have their processes dialed in. It seems Palmer still needs to work on that.

Though given the fact that that particular faulty speaker was also covered in fingerprints, are you sure it wasn't a return resealed by a retailer? It just seems weird that that particular unit would have both those issues with the other ones written about in this thread being just fine.
 
The boxes had definitely not been opened before. The tape was perfectly intact and everything was clean.
 
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