Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

[KL....]

Excellent review. Watched it with youtube's translation. They really did custom bass speakers. I had doubt about that. Having seen the clean internals, the Orbits feel even more like a bargain. Impressive, makes alot of other monitors look bad in comparison.

"These monitors should be significantly more expensive and they certainly would be if they were manufactured by another company, say a well known studio system manufacturer. [...] The lower price was treated as a promotional expense." "The Orbit 11 is unique in our industry, something that theoretically shouldn't happen at this price. And here we are in the sound realms of Kii Audio or even Genelec The Ones." "I don't think it's an exaggeration to call it outstanding"

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Currently I enjoy them for recreational listening from 2.5m distance in a 5x7m livingroom.

Thank you, @illusonic, Yes, indeed impressive and your post indicates that the Orbit 11 can (successfully) be utilised in a livingroom (5m x 7m) :=)

 

[tonyrob]

another excellent review from a German, Thank you, Jörg Hoffmann !

Palmer Orbit 11: Aluminium-Bolide mit 1000 Watt – klingt er auch gut?

Palmer Orbit 11 im Test: 3-Wege-Studiomonitor mit massivem Bass, DSP-Features und hoher Leistung – aber auch klaren klanglichen Schwächen.

www.amazona.de

Here is the summary (Google translate):
"like a rock." Palmer's debut loudspeaker is truly impressive. A veritable battle of materials, unusual design features, and absolutely top-notch workmanship.Few speakers in this price range (789 euros each) can boast such a comprehensive package. My only wish list includes a slightly higher-quality coaxial driver for the midrange and treble, but otherwise the Orbit 11s make an excellent impression.
The Palmer Orbit 11 is a real powerhouse, no ifs, ands, or buts. No other speaker of this size delivers so much bass and volume to the recording studio, while also boasting high-quality materials (aluminum cabinet, 2 x 8" woofers, etc.) and excellent workmanship with a good range of features.
The sound isn't entirely neutral, with weaknesses in the high frequencies; some fine-tuning is necessary to achieve a good result. Unfortunately, the noticeable noise then spoils the experience. It's a shame, because these little speakers are very appealing and offer a lot of potential. However, with the sonic shortcomings and the noise floor, I can only give them a "satisfactory" rating.
He also said " the tweeter is "okay," but to be honest, it doesn't really convince me. It doesn't resolve transients very well with critical material and falls somewhat short in the overall sound. This is very noticeable, for example, on Seven Bridges Road (Live 2013 Remaster), where the vocals aren't very well separated, and Timothy B. Schmitt's high tenor is also grating."

 

[illusonic]

The first review to complain about mid/treble. At least he is creative. My scan speak tweeters are no better. And these are easily as good as anything you can get for example in Genelec/Neumann monitors. Looks like one of his speakers has damaged midrange. The KSD C88 may also not be the best reference.

Sound&Recording review is btw. quite positive about mid/treble resolution, found self-noise to be very low and Palmer's entry into the world of premium monitors a success without any doubt.

 

[Karmacoma]

And these are easily as good as anything you can get for example in Genelec/Neumann monitors.

Certainly not. Measurements and reliable reviewers disagree.
They're quite good for the price though, and I'm really curious of what's coming next from that brand.

 

[illusonic]

Maybe re-read what I wrote. There was a sentence right before the one you replied to.
Who would compare the Orbits to everything from Genelec/Neumann?

You wrote about reviewers in plural. So who would these be?
It seems to me the vast majority of reviews is very positive about the Orbits.

And then there are contradicting statements in some reviews as I pointed out above.
You can add to these contradictions that Jörg Hoffmann raves about the bass while it is the biggest complaint on ASR.

When it comes to direct comparison, the Orbits are worth serious consideration up to KH310 and at least Genelect 8331A.
You can find measurement comparisons to KH310 starting here with an extended max SPL graph here and an 8331A comparison here.
If bass is desired, 8351B would be a better comparison from the Genelec line-up as smaller models require a sub to compete.

Anyways, Orbits are back in stock at Thomann.
Everyone really interested can evaluate the speakers themselfs.

 

[MrBlueSky4470]

When it comes to direct comparison, the Orbits are worth serious consideration up to KH310 and at least Genelect 8331A.

Ummm, no. I used to own the KH310s and I currently own the 8331As, and I've tried the Orbits. For the price, they're good, but they simply can't compete with these and other speakers (which are, of course, much more expensive).

 

[illusonic]

Ummm, no. I used to own the KH310s and I currently own the 8331As, and I've tried the Orbits. For the price, they're good, but they simply can't compete with these and other speakers (which are, of course, much more expensive).

Maybe you can be more specific? Probably with reference to measurements? 8331A lacks bass and has higher distortion.

 

[MrBlueSky4470]

The 8331 is a near-field speaker that I use at arm's length. It might lack the lowest bass octave, but otherwise the bass is very precise and punchy (at reasonable volumes). I found the Orbits to be very direct , but they lacked the transparency, the exceptional separation of individual elements in the mix, and the fatigue-free listening experience that the 8331 offers. I really found the orbits too tiring in the long run. Almost annoying.

 

[Karmacoma]

Maybe re-read what I wrote.

I read well.

You wrote about reviewers in plural. So who would these be?
It seems to me the vast majority of reviews is very positive about the Orbits.

Straw man. Maybe you should re-read what I wrote. I never said the reviews weren't positive, in fact all the reviews I've seen are positive, the price tag being a big factor in that. I have myself been previously positive about them.

When it comes to direct comparison, the Orbits are worth serious consideration up to KH310 and at least Genelect 8331A.

With added dsp, room correction/treatment and filter maybe. But we're talking raw, right?

And then there are contradicting statements in some reviews as I pointed out above.

That wasn't convincing.

If bass is desired, 8351B would be a better comparison from the Genelec line-up as smaller models require a sub to compete.

Yes.

 

[illusonic]

The 8331 is a near-field speaker that I use at arm's length. It might lack the lowest bass octave, but otherwise the bass is very precise and punchy (at reasonable volumes). I found the Orbits to be very direct , but they lacked the transparency, the exceptional separation of individual elements in the mix, and the fatigue-free listening experience that the 8331 offers. I really found the orbits too tiring in the long run. Almost annoying.

Precise, punchy, direct, transparency, separation, fatique-free, tiring, annoying. Don't want to argue with that. On the other hand, these subjective impressions are hardly relevant to others, since they don't apply equally to everyone. For example, I can and do listen to the Orbits all day long without any of the issues you decribe. Best thing one can do is translate the subjective impressions to technical parameters as far as possible.

As both speakers will mostly be operating in their comfort zone when placed at arms length, distortion is probably no issue. You are almost exclusively getting direct sound, which means dispersion characteristics are also not a big factor. Probably you get some table bounce and maybe front-wall reflection. If the Orbits are placed right at the wall, the cardioid dispersion will minimize rear-wall reflection. Unless the wall is much further apart than the arms-length, 8331 cannot avoid at least one cancellation notch from the rear-wall reflection. The front-wall will also reflect whatever comes from the bass-reflex port.

This basically leaves on-axis frequency response, boundary gains and the aforementioned reflections as the biggest potential differences. In most situations some EQ will be required to optimize frequency response. "Direct, tranparency, fatique-free, tiring, annoying" can correspond with frequency response. While the Orbit's are basically flat on-axis and offer quite some EQ filters, optimum room EQ can only be achieved with measurements and fully flexible EQ filters. This is not specific to the Orbits. Too much bass can also be tiring. In most situations the bass shelving or near-wall filters of the Orbits are helpfull to counter room gain. I also reduced treble with the Orbits shelving filters.

For "separation of individual elements in the mix" IMD can be a factor. Erin didn't measure it in his 8331 review. Certainly looks good for the Orbits.

With regard to "precise and punchy" bass, I would see the closed-box Orbits with lower group delay in a good position. Orbit's lower distortion in upper bass is also helpfull for precison and punch.

For many people it's hard to impossible to get over the price difference. In hifi shows the price is often the most important spec to convince people of the stellar performance they have to expect from often ridiculously priced gear. It helps to look at the measurements and components comprised in these speakers. Enclosure, electronics, speakers in Genelec monitors are of similar quality as the corresponding parts in the Orbits. Yes the Genelec coax speakers are slightly more optimized. But not by a large margin and mostly affecting off-axis dispersion.

 

[illusonic]

With added dsp, room correction/treatment and filter maybe. But we're talking raw, right?

Minimum is on-device DSP better some dedicated DSP SW/HW for room EQ - irrespective of the speaker used. I never have and probably never will treat a room acoustically. I get good sound with the Orbits without room treatment and even without external DSP.

 

[MrBlueSky4470]

@illusonic

If those graphs make you happy and you believe you can find the entire truth in them, then you have made your choice. But you could also get the 8331 (probably you can send them back) to compare them in your place and you would find that both speakers sound very different (and I am aware that this is ASR where graphs matter and nothing but graphs). My wife actually prefered the Orbits for their directness, I did not. And I never said they were bad speakers, just not on par. As for the quality of the enclosure, electronics and chassis I can only say that I found the paintjob on the Orbits quite horrible. Very uneven and patchy.

 

[jhaider]

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That picture an advertisement for the fact that loudspeakers require grilles.

 

[DatSpeakerTho]

"These monitors should be significantly more expensive and they certainly would be if they were manufactured by another company, say a well known studio system manufacturer. [...] The lower price was treated as a promotional expense." "The Orbit 11 is unique in our industry, something that theoretically shouldn't happen at this price. And here we are in the sound realms of Kii Audio or even Genelec The Ones." "I don't think it's an exaggeration to call it outstanding"

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See neumann not that hard to use nice caps.

 

[dasherzx]

after dsp i dont find a clear winner between the orbit or 310. but I use dirac full-range. response is less flat on the orbits pre-correction though. all in all the 310 is better if you use it as is but less so after eq. as a hobbist i find them adequate to go toe to toe with the 310...goes down way lower in bass too.

 

[Sokel]

That picture an advertisement for the fact that loudspeakers require grilles.

And a thousand times more for any speakers that have their three sides covered with drivers.

They are an accident waiting to happen, from the unboxing to the final toe I/O.

 

[Ratterbass]

The KSD C88 may also not be the best reference.

I really don't get the hype for these speakers. If they're anything like the smaller C8, they're pretty bad all in all and borderline unuseable in my eyes.

Edit to clarify:

Incredibly high enclosure resonances, both in frequency (they actually ring when knocked) and level, rough build quality (it really is just folded steel nothing else), the included stand doesn't really tighten to prevent them from creeping tilting, relatively high self noise. At factory default (12 o clock gain) similar to the Orbits. You have to pay a grand for a shabby looking remote that allows you to utilize the built in DSP. The enclosure is not sealed at the back so you have to screw on the plexiglass plate really tightly to prevent noise from the holes

 

[Bwaslo]

Well, I finally got a pair of Orbit 11 in. Very impressed by the fit and finish , and I gotta wonder about the report above of a bad paint job -- on mine it's as perfect as I can imagine paint to be, looks almost anodized. That one should be returned if it looked bad!). First impression on unpacking: damn, these suckers are HEAVY. I read about them being 30 pounds, but hadn't really anticipated how that felt in so small a package. Not in the least put off by the look of exposed drivers, I can't remember many audiophile listening rooms that had the grills on the speakers! Other than ESLs. Guess I'm used to that.

Have not had a chance to hear them yet, I need to wait till I have time to work with them and deal with the cable mess inside my credenza. My girlfriend just had surgery last week so I may be occupied for a month or so. I got the speakers now because I worried that the price might soon increase substantially due to the messed up US (and rest of world) economic situation.

 

[illusonic]

@illusonic

If those graphs make you happy and you believe you can find the entire truth in them, then you have made your choice. But you could also get the 8331 (probably you can send them back) to compare them in your place and you would find that both speakers sound very different (and I am aware that this is ASR where graphs matter and nothing but graphs). My wife actually prefered the Orbits for their directness, I did not. And I never said they were bad speakers, just not on par. As for the quality of the enclosure, electronics and chassis I can only say that I found the paintjob on the Orbits quite horrible. Very uneven and patchy.

Music makes me happy. Graphs tell me which speakers are worthy options for listening tests. Final decision for personal speakers will always be my own taste. And the Orbits first provided good measurement results and then passed my listening test.

I'm not in the market for new speakers so don't need to test the Genelecs. However, I did listen briefly to 8381A and probably 8351B on High-End trade-show in Munich. Both sounded excellent with 8381A being one of my personal favorites in Munich.

You made a pretty strong statement claiming that the Orbits can't compete with Genelec/Neumann, based solely on your subjective impressions. So I showed you some data that suggests otherwise. However, it seems it merely takes your own wife to prove your statement wrong. Provided that her subjective impressions count as much as yours.

 

[Torinoscale]

Man I still want to try them in my room, hearing for myself how they sound in general and if the hiss is noticable to me, it's just a too good design and price not to check out in my opinion. Thomann says 6-8 weeks though!