those who listened to them say they are quite something ...
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PA is not home Hifi
- Thread starter DanielT
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RCAguy
Member
Opinions claiming a given speaker is for "home" or "PA" use are biased in the audiophile echo-chamber, and in truth need more nuance. Today's quality PA gear is hard to beat when loafing at home levels - JBL commercial drivers populate their best studio monitors, and at home would not distort playing at concert level as most home gear does, especially in a big room. Speakers have the toughest job in audio, and today, due to high distortion and non-flat frequency response when coupled to an acoustically untreated room, are the last audio component to be transparent. These are much improved by a subwoofer or two - see "Subwoofer Camp" at www.filmaker.com
PS - Many home users have had old technology Altec 60x series boxes (coaxial but ragged in response) and Voice of the Theater (very ragged response) that while in their day were considered both hi-fi and commercial (PA), but don't qualify today.
PS - Many home users have had old technology Altec 60x series boxes (coaxial but ragged in response) and Voice of the Theater (very ragged response) that while in their day were considered both hi-fi and commercial (PA), but don't qualify today.
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Never heard Altecs so no knowledge there but otherwise I agree. Super expensive large studio "main monitors" (often soffit mounted), would be my dream speakers and they have more in common with good "PA" speakers than "home hifi" for sure.
Good sound quality, without distortion gets expensive with big SPLs!
Good sound quality, without distortion gets expensive with big SPLs!
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That is true for audiophools for sure, just as the "analogue is everything", digital is bad daftness. Most sensible people that use digital sources recognise the usefulness of EQ. In pro audio you would be laughed at for not understanding.
Hi thanks for your valuable advice Seriously i know many audiophiles Not one is using EQ units and almost no one has a treated listening room
I think i will try soon one I am curious to listen
Here's some very unimportant info. on PA's
I've done sound for live performances using different PA's & IMO none of them sound good at low volumes. Given that I would not want a PA system in my house. Also a huge personal preference with performers and what they want the PA/monitors to sound like and that's where a PA system really shines. Only seen a few shows where the artist really complained a lot over the PA as with all the EQ we could pretty much please everybody.
One guy who everybody knows decided to play some shows at a small venue I was working at (about 400 person capacity). The guy & his band were used to filling stadiums and the only way He could work out the money end of such a small gate was "the house would do the sound" Ha, 5 minutes into there 1st sound check they shut it down stormed out & said were coming back with our gear. 2 days later truck loads of amp racks & speakers were brought in & set up by His people. It was the most incredible live sound I have ever heard it was magical. I know the shows He played cost Him money. I gained huge respect for that guy to not compromise on His standards. Lucky for the audience He had the money to what He did none of em knew the story but everybody loved the sound & the shows.
I've done sound for live performances using different PA's & IMO none of them sound good at low volumes. Given that I would not want a PA system in my house. Also a huge personal preference with performers and what they want the PA/monitors to sound like and that's where a PA system really shines. Only seen a few shows where the artist really complained a lot over the PA as with all the EQ we could pretty much please everybody.
One guy who everybody knows decided to play some shows at a small venue I was working at (about 400 person capacity). The guy & his band were used to filling stadiums and the only way He could work out the money end of such a small gate was "the house would do the sound" Ha, 5 minutes into there 1st sound check they shut it down stormed out & said were coming back with our gear. 2 days later truck loads of amp racks & speakers were brought in & set up by His people. It was the most incredible live sound I have ever heard it was magical. I know the shows He played cost Him money. I gained huge respect for that guy to not compromise on His standards. Lucky for the audience He had the money to what He did none of em knew the story but everybody loved the sound & the shows.
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Cool but what is your point?
Title of thread is, "PA is not home Hifi." I made my point in the 1st 2 sentences of my post agreeing with the thread title. Not sure where you don't see a point of view from somebody who has worked a lot PA's ?
RCAguy
Member
My big listening system is all commercial speakers, and all my pro audio and studio owner colleagues rave about it. It’s in a 500 cubic meter studio, and I demonstrate it with acoustic music at concert level. A musician and composer friend says “it's the best stereo I’ve ever heard” - and still gigging at 76 that’s saying something. So it’s not just me.
posvibes
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"PA is not home hi-fi", I always wondered about that when I heard very nice sounds coming from a small PA system being used in an open space that accommodated a cafe seating area and a few counter retail areas in the nearby. It was a floor speaker smaller than a stage "foldback" monitor and a small cube parked up on a wall near the ceiling. They were playing probably dedicated music for such areas, just easy listening stuff. I could hear it when I was approaching and it sounded like a miked piano player so I was surprised to find that little system.
It wasn't loud and that's what got me to thinking how that would work in a domestic setting, there was such ease of sound with an omni-directional presence that was very pleasing. While I was drinking coffee and eating cake I was hoping for a track with vocals but alas it was all instrumental.
It wasn't loud and that's what got me to thinking how that would work in a domestic setting, there was such ease of sound with an omni-directional presence that was very pleasing. While I was drinking coffee and eating cake I was hoping for a track with vocals but alas it was all instrumental.
hi may i ask which commercial speakers ? i am curious now Thanks a lot
Waxx
Major Contributor
PA and home hifi are a bit artificial definitions, there is definitly a big overlap.
The biggest issues with decent PA gear, is that the speakers are often not fit for low volume (heavy cones with BL not strong enough to counter, horn loading that throws the sound to far for living room use, ...) and that their amps and other electronics very often has loud fans and are often more build for withstand heavy abuse than to sound good. But there are many devices or drivrs that are fit for both, and they are often among the best arround when they are fit for both.
Brands like Beyma, B&C and Faital (And also JBL and some more) make drivers mostly targetted at PA bu also fit for hifi, and they got used in all kind of diy hifi speakers and are often better than their "hifi" equivalent. I'm busy with a project for a friend with a Beyma 12BR70 and a Faital HS201 tweeter in horn, to make an oldskool "weight & treble" system for home use, with the option to use it for small parties. Those drivers are fit for low level music, and the amps will get modded to work without noisy fan, the dsp will be a dbx driverrack, ...
But you can't do that with Precision Devices drivers, that are heavy cone and pure on high volume targetted. Their subwoofers don't give bass untill you load them with a few watts, and then they are already way to loud for hifi use...
And if you want shiny hifi-jewelery you won't find it in that section of audio, these is more hands on. But that hifi and pro audio don't have a overlap, is bullshit, there is a lot of gear that can be used in both situations. You just need to check if the gear is fit for that.
The biggest issues with decent PA gear, is that the speakers are often not fit for low volume (heavy cones with BL not strong enough to counter, horn loading that throws the sound to far for living room use, ...) and that their amps and other electronics very often has loud fans and are often more build for withstand heavy abuse than to sound good. But there are many devices or drivrs that are fit for both, and they are often among the best arround when they are fit for both.
Brands like Beyma, B&C and Faital (And also JBL and some more) make drivers mostly targetted at PA bu also fit for hifi, and they got used in all kind of diy hifi speakers and are often better than their "hifi" equivalent. I'm busy with a project for a friend with a Beyma 12BR70 and a Faital HS201 tweeter in horn, to make an oldskool "weight & treble" system for home use, with the option to use it for small parties. Those drivers are fit for low level music, and the amps will get modded to work without noisy fan, the dsp will be a dbx driverrack, ...
But you can't do that with Precision Devices drivers, that are heavy cone and pure on high volume targetted. Their subwoofers don't give bass untill you load them with a few watts, and then they are already way to loud for hifi use...
And if you want shiny hifi-jewelery you won't find it in that section of audio, these is more hands on. But that hifi and pro audio don't have a overlap, is bullshit, there is a lot of gear that can be used in both situations. You just need to check if the gear is fit for that.
you'll find heaps of overlap
like you'll see a lot of people using crown and behringer type amps... i have yet to see anyone use those big plastic blow mould speakers like the behringer pk108s but i'm sure they're there.
if you want to go further with this i would state that studio nearfield speakers isnt really 'home hi-fi' either but to me whatever you do in your house is up to you
heaps of people dig soundbars and bluetooth speakers and mesh type setups and sure, if you like that go for it
like you'll see a lot of people using crown and behringer type amps... i have yet to see anyone use those big plastic blow mould speakers like the behringer pk108s but i'm sure they're there.
if you want to go further with this i would state that studio nearfield speakers isnt really 'home hi-fi' either but to me whatever you do in your house is up to you
heaps of people dig soundbars and bluetooth speakers and mesh type setups and sure, if you like that go for it
OP
DanielT
Major Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #55
I personally use the PA amp, the t.amp E-800 for my subwoofers. In fact, with 0.03% distortion at half power and signal-to-noise ratio > 100 dB (A-weighted) (see attached picture), I can use it for my speakers if I want. If the technical data stated is correct, it is more than enough good for me.
I definitely don't need to worry about power in any case. There are now silent Noctua fans in my t.amp. Not completely silent though but that fan noise is not something that is heard when I play music at normal listening volume, or at a lower volume for that matter.
Plus sometimes, or actually more and more, use a vintage PA amp (less power than t.amp but not fan cooled), which I really like.I use the Sela PA-amp to power the speakers. This amp:
Why 12 power transistors in a class AB (?)120 W (?) amplifier?
Why 12 power transistors in a class AB (?)120 W (?) amplifier in .. 4-8 Ohm (?) What is the point of 6 power transistors per channel in such an amplifier? Information and pictures below . I would be very grateful for clarification. The stuff works, but I'm just curious. :) Some facts. Sela, a...
audiosciencereview.com
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OP
DanielT
Major Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #56
Hasn't it become more common, is more desired , demanded solutions/HiFi gadgets with balanced functionality within home HiFi? I don't know if I'm imagining things but I think that more often, here at ASR anyway, questions about balanced (for home HiFi that is) is coming up.
Balanced is otherwise something I associate with PA. That because there may be a need for long cables. Probably also good if you stack various gadgets and then connect them. To have then balanced that is.
But ok if you also have to plug in various amplifiers at home (subwoofer amp, amp to speakers) and they are then are controlled by pre amps, DAC, maybe some DSP involved in the audio chain, then maybe the need for balanced also increases for home HiFi.
Balanced is otherwise something I associate with PA. That because there may be a need for long cables. Probably also good if you stack various gadgets and then connect them. To have then balanced that is.
But ok if you also have to plug in various amplifiers at home (subwoofer amp, amp to speakers) and they are then are controlled by pre amps, DAC, maybe some DSP involved in the audio chain, then maybe the need for balanced also increases for home HiFi.
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RCAguy
Member
I've mentioned preferring any of many of JBL highest quality implementations, from portable PA boxes to movie theater installs, that contain their best neo woofers - 2262 12in, 2265 15in, 2268 18in, and 2269 18in. While designed for high levels in concert arrays, these have the best distortion measurements at home or studio levels of any cone driver in my experience. (For the science behind the need for low distortion in subwoofers, see my paper "Subwoofer Camp" at www.filmaker.com.)
Hi thanks a lot If i had more space i would go for this kind of speakers for sure I listen from max 10 feet away from the speakers But i love big sounds a lot
i run balanced simply because my choice of gear has it 'for free'... so i visited my local guitar PA store and bought the cheapest balanced cables they have
i'm in two minds about this
Amir's spiel about balanced is that you know for sure there's no chance of interference, So if the cost is close to zero then use it.
But if an amp or setup costs thousands more to go to balanced then dont do it.
However the sort of distances we're talking about in the home should be short enough that balanced isnt needed?
Unless you're in a strange setup where your preamp is feeding a pair of Genelecs and then of course, money isnt an object and you DO have some distance to cover between left and right.
i'm in two minds about this
Amir's spiel about balanced is that you know for sure there's no chance of interference, So if the cost is close to zero then use it.
But if an amp or setup costs thousands more to go to balanced then dont do it.
However the sort of distances we're talking about in the home should be short enough that balanced isnt needed?
Unless you're in a strange setup where your preamp is feeding a pair of Genelecs and then of course, money isnt an object and you DO have some distance to cover between left and right.
I'd suggest some of you consider the econowave speakers with JBL drivers, very efficient and excellent sounding speakers.
B&C poly horns are definitely high-end territory especially with flea-power class A amps
And finally, many of Troels designs use PA drivers even though he also uses 'high end' drivers like scanspeak
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
******** Project Summary: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1856214#post1856214 Member Projects and Acknowledgments: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584 Member Listening Impressions...
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B&C poly horns are definitely high-end territory especially with flea-power class A amps
Home
B&C DE250-8 1" Polyimide Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-BoltB&C's DE250 1" high frequency compression driver features smooth and accurate response. Its low mass polyimide diaphragm and optimized ceramic magnet assembly allow high sensitivity and low distortion up to 18 kHz. Popular with professional...
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And finally, many of Troels designs use PA drivers even though he also uses 'high end' drivers like scanspeak
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