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PA is not home Hifi

DanielT

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I've noticed one thing. As for examples of cables (sound quality and external influence on cables), in/outputs (balanced unbalanced), speaker elements that produce heat and its effect on sound production are sometimes referred to the PA world. This PA world and its challenges and problems are transferred to home HiFi. Why? Why are there those who believe that home Hifi have the same problems as the PA world? I do not understand how there are those that can draw that conclusions?

PA is PA and there, for example, possibly, really long speaker cables might affect the sound, or? Really long, tricky conditions, possibly. I do not know. I do not work with PA, but Hifi at home?
 
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tomtoo

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PA is a littel bit more the rocket industry for sound.
Like why i should need a rocket to come comfy from a to b?
But they had always to fight with big problems, and home hifi can always learn a littel.
Like active dsp'ing of speakers
 
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DanielT

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Undeniably. The professionalism and the big knowledge that exists within PA. There I agree with you. As long as you do not automatically for home hifi take it to completely ridiculous overklill level and create unnecessarily solutions based on PA. As long as it is not copied straight off.:)
 

NYfan2

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I used to think the same as you, home audio is about achieving the best reproduction of music possible in your house, PA is about producing high sound levels for big crowds inside big venues or outside. So I accepted that PA systems sounded different then home systems.

Nowadays I'm not so sure about that anymore. Ofcourse for a home system you don't need the high sound levels required for PA but some of the techniques used in PA loudspeakers are also usable in home systems, active crossovers and DSP it's the same. Also I prefer balanced connections over unbalanced, unfortunaltely in home audio that is still not a standard.

About sound differences, recently I had to replace a crossover in a JBL sound system in a medium sized hall and first I applied the crossover settings as advised, that was OK but then I did some measurements with REW and played a bit with the crossover settings to improve the measurements (main problem was an enormous dip around 100Hz, probably from the room). I was really amazed about the sound quality I finally was able to produce with this 23 year old PA system.

So I think PA and home audio although they serve a different purpose both kan benefit from the knowledge and techniques used.

About long cables affecting the sound, that is definitely possible, but then you are talking really long speaker cable >50m and that will (probably) never be the case in a home audio system. I once experienced that in a big sound system, it took us a long time and a lot of work to find the problem because it was literally the last option we had to find the problem.
 

tomtoo

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Undeniably. The professionalism and the big knowledge that exists within PA. There I agree with you. As long as you do not automatically for home hifi take it to completely ridiculous overklill level and create unnecessarily solutions based on PA. As long as it is not copied straight off.:)

Whats a ridiculous overkill? Having 600HP in your car? Some would say, yes others would say 800HP would be more fun. Having two 10inch subs or 4 18inch subs?
Is there a ridiculous overkill for fun? ;)
 
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DanielT

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I used to think the same as you, home audio is about achieving the best reproduction of music possible in your house, PA is about producing high sound levels for big crowds inside big venues or outside. So I accepted that PA systems sounded different then home systems.

Nowadays I'm not so sure about that anymore. Ofcourse for a home system you don't need the high sound levels required for PA but some of the techniques used in PA loudspeakers are also usable in home systems, active crossovers and DSP it's the same. Also I prefer balanced connections over unbalanced, unfortunaltely in home audio that is still not a standard.

About sound differences, recently I had to replace a crossover in a JBL sound system in a medium sized hall and first I applied the crossover settings as advised, that was OK but then I did some measurements with REW and played a bit with the crossover settings to improve the measurements (main problem was an enormous dip around 100Hz, probably from the room). I was really amazed about the sound quality I finally was able to produce with this 23 year old PA system.

So I think PA and home audio although they serve a different purpose both kan benefit from the knowledge and techniques used.

About long cables affecting the sound, that is definitely possible, but then you are talking really long speaker cable >50m and that will (probably) never be the case in a home audio system. I once experienced that in a big sound system, it took us a long time and a lot of work to find the problem because it was literally the last option we had to find the problem.
Just when you published your post, I wrote (interesting observations from your side):

When I think, I wonder what the Hifi industry is learning from the PA industry? I can guess a lot, although I really know nothing about the PA industri.

.What has PA learned from Hifi ditto? Beware of snaike oil? But why would PA people even give it a thought. They are professional. :)
 
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DanielT

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Whats a ridiculous overkill? Having 600HP in your car? Some would say, yes others would say 800HP would be more fun. Having two 10inch subs or 4 18inch subs?
Is there a ridiculous overkill for fun? ;)
Well, the question is what is overkill. Personally, I like:


:p

Two 18 inches elements in each speaker. In a small living room. Overkill?
(not mine)

Certainly ..... if you ask the neighbors.:)

909nr2fd1xp4dljn36zed3um.jpeg
 
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tomtoo

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Just when you published your post, I wrote (interesting observations from your side):

When I think, I wonder what the Hifi industry is learning from the PA industry? I can guess a lot, although I really know nothing about the PA industri.

.What has PA learned from Hifi ditto? Beware of snaike oil? But why would PA people even give it a thought. They are professional. :)


No you wont find magic crystalls for better PA sound. Thats more for the audiop...... ;)
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I believe they are closer than we would like to think or we've been led to think. Both should strive for fidelity to the source. The constraints however are very different. e.g: the number of listeners, the area and volume of the listening space, related to the latter, the distances and levels.
This tend to require different solutions to specific problems.

I am sure many here have come very impressed by the degree of fidelity , albeit subjective of some PA systems... We usually shake it off. but there remains the nagging impression that, maybe, just maybe it is as good or better than what you have at home ;)... I heard a Danley Systems installation many years ago at Utica Memorial Auditorium, NY, frankly few home systems are as clear and clean.

Peace
 
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DanielT

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I see the image of the esoteric audiophile in front of me. Fuzzy hovering and creats his (her?) home hifi system.

That while a PA person coldly states:
What does the room look like?Drawing please. How many visitors? What is required? After that creats a PA solution that fits the specification. :)

Note the image of an fuzzy wafflling audiophil. Most people who write here check technical data and tests. You understand exactly what types of audiophiles I am referring to.:)
 

tomtoo

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I see the image of the esoteric audiophile in front of me. Fuzzy hovering and creats his (her?) home hifi system.

That while a PA person coldly states:
What does the room look like?Drawing please. How many visitors? What is required? After that creats a PA solution that fits the specification. :)

Note the image of an fuzzy wafflling audiophil. Most people who write here check technical data and tests. You understand exactly what types of audiophiles I am referring to.:)

I have never seen the esoterics building moon rockets, formula1 cars and good audio systems, never.
But some of them a realy great in arts.

Edit says: Thats why i prefer that the technical people do the technical things, and the esoterics stay in the art.
 
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Robin L

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No magic in this crystals. Its all chemistry ;)
You say potato . . .

In any case, the last three books I read were "150 Glimpses of the Beatles", Keef's "Life" and "The Double Life of Bob Dylan". Some folk who required PA thought of these specific crystals as "magic". For Keef, Merck = magic.

As I recall, the mantra for PA is "Maximum SPL before feedback", which I guess is also an issue for vinyl fetishists.
 

tomtoo

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You say potato . . .

in any case, the last three books I read were "150 Glimpses of the Beatles", Keef's "Life" and "The Double Life of Bob Dylan". Some folk who required PA thought of these specific crystals as "magic". For Keef, Merck = magic.


You see they are artists. ;) Iam realy not sure what happens if the sound engineers have to much magic powder and smoke.
 

pozz

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@DanielT If you read Bob McCarthy's book, Sound Systems: Design & Optimization, you'll find what @FrantzM said true:
they are closer than we would like to think
The only difference between a domestic space and a stadium or concert hall is the size of area where you need good response. With that come power requirements and complex gear arrangements to make it happen, especially when considering how differently sound behaves in a large space. The target curve McCarthy independently identified for good sound is very similar to the Harman curve for loudspeakers. Gentle tilt from lows to highs, with personal preference dictating the degree of tilt, but in any case smooth and consistent response from seat to seat is necessary (but across hundreds or thousands of seats).

What that's led to is a very different history of techniques and gear.
 

Robin L

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@DanielT If you read Bob McCarthy's book, Sound Systems: Design & Optimization, you'll find what @FrantzM said true:

The only difference between a domestic space and a stadium or concert hall is the size of area where you need good response. With that come power requirements and complex gear arrangements to make it happen, especially when considering how differently sound behaves in a large space. The target curve McCarthy independently identified for good sound is very similar to the Harman curve for loudspeakers. Gentle tilt from lows to highs, with personal preference dictating the degree of tilt, but in any case smooth and consistent response from seat to seat is necessary (but across hundreds or thousands of seats).

What that's led to is a very different history of techniques and gear.
Well, there is also the issue of feedback from microphones. If the home audio system is all-digital, there isn't a chance of feedback. Turntable-based systems have issues with feedback, but nothing on the scale of the issues with PA.
 

tomtoo

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They have to fight with the same problems like a hifi system and more.

But Directivity, FR, SPL is for the pros the same importend. And they have to fight the problems on a much higher level.
 
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