Output stage : Wiim Amp vs (disappointing) Wiim Amp Ultra

[voodooless]

Funny, but not very kind.

I guess you don’t understand. The point is: it’s not just yours ears. They are just a conduit for sound to the brain. Your brain interprets this data, but also adds in a myriad of other sources you can neither control nor switch off at will. So you’re never just evaluating what you hear, but also what you see, what you read somewhere, how you feel at that point in time, and many, more things.

The fact of the matter is, you cannot trust your judgement without applying some basic controls. We’ve all been there, nobody is immune to is.

 

[RandomEar]

the L & C part of a loudspeaker seen as an electrical load.

+ about dynamics : response time, current ability vs L & C etc... High efficiency D-class chip tuning comes with a lot of constraints and is an art by itself.

Now you're just throwing random words and letters around. The amp delivers far more current than your previous one, it's not the limiting factor. There is no relevant "response time" in audio amplifiers - this isn't some cutting edge GHz range HF stuff, it's boring old 20 kHz and below with ruler flat FR. Constraints and compromised exist in all real amplifier designs, this is also not anything special to class D.

Overall, I spent hours trying to find an explanation and a fix. I couldn't. Now I just want to feel the music, to enjoy my hifi system, and I don't with this amp. Believe me, I'd be so happy to keep this nice little box and just forget it.

The point is that there is probably nothing to fix or it's easy to fix with proper room correction/EQ (not using an iPhone), but you continue to refute both possibilities. You came here asking for advice. I think you've been given good advice in this thread. But you ignore it because it doesn't align with your preconceived idea of how audio works.

We all know that a hifi system sits somewhere between science and art. No equation exists to say "sounds good or not". That's it.

We do not "all know it", that's probably the main problem here. You believe it.

Yes, there is some subjectivity in selection speakers, doing room correction and that stuff. But the vast majority of modern DACs, pre-amps and amps do not have any "sound" to them anymore. They're just transparent or almost transparent. The major discriminating factor between modern amps in a blind test will be the noise floor, which can still be audible in the form of tweeter hiss. That's pretty much it.

If you continue to hunt a specific "sound" by switching devices which sound essentially identical, it's pretty easy to guess which result you're going to get.

 

[Emilio75]

Well, I got your theory, thank you. My amp is perfect, my sensitive brain is imperfect and my cognitive brain is dying. Ok. Fine.

I asked 3 questions and after 21 posts, only two posts brought something positive to the table, both from @Marc v E. I thank you again for this Mark, I appreciate.

Now, let's forget figures please. And let's go back to my initial post. Copy/paste :

Q1 : Has anyone faced such issue with Wiim TPA3255 PFFB output stage, and what solution did you find in a similar budget ?

Q2 : Would the Wiim Amp (non pro) sound better ? (please don't compare watts, I barely listen loud, and it's probably all about impedance and reactive/capacitive response here)

Q3 : Do you confirm Hypex nCore would bring my Tannoy 636 SE back to life ?

Thank you !

 

[voodooless]

All questions were answered by post #2. You just don’t like the answers you got…

 

[Svend P]

Q1: No
Q2: No
Q3: No

 

[john61ct]

Your ears will adjust over time to the cleaner amplification, meantime tweak with EQ.

Replacing the amp will do nothing real.

I would suggest adding a good variable Loudness Control that works automatically, linked to volume level.

You could attempt to create a static version in PEQ but only if you listen at a consistent level.

 

[CDMC]

Two cents having just bought a Wiim amp. The gain is pretty low. You don’t get to full output until the volume is basically maxed. Compare this to many integrated amps where they will start clipping with the volume at half. Unless the OP level matches both with pink noise and an spl meter, nobody knows if the levels are actually matched. Do that and report back. Then set the Wiim 3 db higher and you can report how it sounds more dynamic.

 

[Karl_in_Chicago]

Well, I got your theory, thank you. My amp is perfect, my sensitive brain is imperfect and my cognitive brain is dying. Ok. Fine.

I asked 3 questions and after 21 posts, only two posts brought something positive to the table, both from @Marc v E. I thank you again for this Mark, I appreciate.

Now, let's forget figures please. And let's go back to my initial post. Copy/paste :

Q1 : Has anyone faced such issue with Wiim TPA3255 PFFB output stage, and what solution did you find in a similar budget ?

Q2 : Would the Wiim Amp (non pro) sound better ? (please don't compare watts, I barely listen loud, and it's probably all about impedance and reactive/capacitive response here)

Q3 : Do you confirm Hypex nCore would bring my Tannoy 636 SE back to life ?

Thank you !

Q1. No. I have a Wiim Amp Ultra in the bedroom driving a pair of Sonus-Faber Lumina II's; Sonus tech specs state 86 dB sensitivity and 4 Ohms nominal load, so not what I would describe as efficient.
Q2. I doubt it
Q3. Impossible to *confirm*. If you *want* a Hypex amp you can't go wrong with Buckeye (I have a Purifi 2-ch) but, of course, there are options.

 

[LTig]

The main lack is about dynamics, which has nothing to do with the frequency response (EQ).

This is not true. Use tone controls to slightly raise the frequency response in the lows and in a direct comparison it will sound fuller and with more dynamics. Even a dynamics meter will show higher values.

 

[LTig]

Well, I got your theory, thank you. My amp is perfect, my sensitive brain is imperfect and my cognitive brain is dying. Ok. Fine.

This is wrong. Your brain is working fine, just like other human brains, and 80+ years of scientific research in psycho acoustic have shown that the human hearing sense is very unreliable when it comes to sound quality under sighted and non controlled conditions. There is nothing we can do other than auditioning level matched to 0.1 dB and blind.

 

[rjp]

Two cents having just bought a Wiim amp. The gain is pretty low. You don’t get to full output until the volume is basically maxed. Compare this to many integrated amps where they will start clipping with the volume at half.

I noticed this as well with the WiiM Vibelink amp. With the volume at 100 it produced exactly full stated output power at the rated rms input level. There was no way to overdrive it by turning up the volume. I agree that some other amps reach full non-clipped output at lower volume settings making them appear more powerful.

 

[Ruediger]

I asked 3 questions and after 21 posts, only two posts brought something positive to the table, both from @Marc v E. I thank you again for this Mark, I appreciate.

Now, let's forget figures please. And let's go back to my initial post. Copy/paste :

Q1 : Has anyone faced such issue with Wiim TPA3255 PFFB output stage, and what solution did you find in a similar budget ?

Q2 : Would the Wiim Amp (non pro) sound better ? (please don't compare watts, I barely listen loud, and it's probably all about impedance and reactive/capacitive response here)

Q3 : Do you confirm Hypex nCore would bring my Tannoy 636 SE back to life ?

Thank you !

Well, what if you already have the positive?

Let me try.

Q1: Only a little bit. When replacing old class AB amps that sounded a bit damp and colored. Their pre-amplification/DAC, not the actual amp stage.

Q2: No, but it's a cheaper option if you don't need the Ultra features.

Q3: No. You would get about the same or even a little bit more of that surprisingly clean, neutral sound.

 

[rjp]

Q1 : Has anyone faced such issue with Wiim TPA3255 PFFB output stage, and what solution did you find in a similar budget ?

Q2 : Would the Wiim Amp (non pro) sound better ? (please don't compare watts, I barely listen loud, and it's probably all about impedance and reactive/capacitive response here)

Q3 : Do you confirm Hypex nCore would bring my Tannoy 636 SE back to life ?

Thank you !

I own the WiiM Ultra and love it. For a while I also had the WiiM Vibelink. Not sure how this design compares to the Wiim Amp (non pro) or the amp in the Amp Ultra, but here is my opinion fwiw.

I think the Vibelink sounded good, but it did not sound as quite good as my Audiolab 9000p driving my Dynaudio Special 40 speakers. However, it was so close I doubt I would even have noticed it without a fast A/B switch between level matched setups. Also, although the two amps are both rated at 100wrms, the Vibelink did not get as loud. I realize there is no good technical reason why these ams should sound different based on specs.

I have recently ordered a Purifi based Buckeye 2 ch. I am eager to see what all the fuss is about these modern class D marvels. My only expectation is that it should be better than the vibelink, or at least louder.

Here is my advice, buy the Hypex to have all the ready clean power you will ever need on hand, and rely on EQ in the WiiM to bring your speakers back to life.

 

[Ruediger]

The Purifi will have a good bit more power, so louder of course. Otherwise expect no noise even with gain high and very sensitive speakers.

Besides that good luck hearing a difference from the Vibelink. Which is an excellent amp already. I love it for it's analog path plus the two digital in options to the ES9039 DAC. No drawback anywhere.

 

[Marc v E]

Sometimes it's good to experiment ime.
What helped me best of all things I've learned, is measuring with a minidsp umik and rew.

Just 2 weeks ago it helped tune my desktop system. And to be honest, I was completely wrong in assuming the problem was a tad too much bass. I could hear there was something not quite right, but in my case it turned out to be that the deviation from the Harman curve was in the treble. There was no down slope. Corrected it and the result sounds just right.

Anyway, I just want to show that measuring with a umik and messing about a bit with rew and eq can really make a meaningful difference.

(For those interested: there are some great rew tutorials here and on youtube.)

 

[rjp]

I agree, umik and REW, and now lately WiiM, have made this hobby so much more enjoyable.

 

[Syncope]

Hi, I'm a bit late to the show, but is it possible that your sub-out is on and is HPFing the mains?

 

[Emilio75]

Thank you all for you replies and ideas.

I just want to stress the point that the issue was not "no bass at all" nor "not loud enough". This nice little box was working well, the sound was generally ok, with the wahoo effect of very detailed trebles. The main trouble was a lack of punch : it sounded surprisingly slow, inertial, lifeless. Then the bass response (sometimes deep and powerful, sometimes weak). And also a blurrying stage when listening to large orchestral ensembles.

Anyway I returned the Wiim Amp Ultra and I'm currently taking time and thinking about all of this before the next purchase(s).

I fully agree that acoustic measurements bring a lot. It's a very good news that it's so simple to handle nowadays. RoomFit turned out to be very effective at reducing resonance effects in my room, and I'm considering using a Minidsp.

The first stage will probably be a Wiim Ultra.

On the amp side, I don't know yet and I'm considering testing several Class D amplifiers/implementations. I hope the next attempt will be the right one, because life is short !

I'll update this thread for what it's worth.

 

[Ruediger]

Can't do anything wrong with the Ultra.

Maybe a look at the Yamaha A-S line of amps is a good match for what you seek. Just wanted to add that as a recommendation.

 

[Emilio75]

Can't do anything wrong with the Ultra.

Maybe a look at the Yamaha A-S line of amps is a good match for what you seek. Just wanted to add that as a recommendation.

Thank you.
Not sure I’d go back to Class AB because I prefer Class D for smaller size/no heat and I was happy with the CR610. If I don't find anything better (which is obvioulsy very unlikely), the CR612 could be the last attempt.