Outlaw 2200’s seem under driven by my denon.

[Jon.kin96]

Just joined this forum and I’m hoping you guys may be able to help out.
I just bought 2 outlaw 2200’s to power my towers in a 7.2 setup. Trying to find a 3rd for my center channel with no luck so far.

my issue is this, though....they don’t seem to be powering my towers very well! Before installing them, I had my front towers at +0.5(L) and -0.5(R) to reach 75db at 0 volume on my receiver. The AVR I’m using is a denon AVR-x3400h. Now, after installing these 2200’s via RCA and on the “music” trigger option, I’ve had to turn my L up to +9 and the right up to +6.5 to reach 75db at 0 volume level. I understand the the sensitivity for AVR internal amps is MUCH higher than on a separate unit, but I still feel as though something isn’t quite right here and I can’t find any pre out settings in the denon. Also, my LCR is 2 RTI70 towers and a csi5 center channel.
Thanks in advance for any help with this...

 

[Chrispy]

Did you re-run the calibration (Audyssey or manual) to account for the external amps?

 

[Jon.kin96]

Did you re-run the calibration (Audyssey or manual) to account for the external amps?

I haven’t run audyssey since I bought this receiver but I guess it wouldn’t be a bad idea. I’ve just been using REW and an spl meter to do all my tuning; especially after hearing all the horror stories with audyssey

 

[Chrispy]

It will help out on adjusting gain structure for your external amp to match up with the internal amps....but you manually set these up with that method on installation of the external amp? Audyssey can be used just to set levels/distance if you want....

 

[Jon.kin96]

If I’m understanding you correctly, that’s my issue. I can’t find any sort of pre out settings in the denon anywhere.
As for levels and distance, I’ve always just used a tape measure and SPL meter on C weighting. I’ve heard of and seen so many people have issues with audyssey setting levels and distances WAY off and I EQ each channel myself with REW.

 

[Chrispy]

Some have good experiences with it (I generally have), some just hate the very idea of it. YMMV. Distances may be more acoustically accurate than your tape measure, especially for a sub to account for inherent delays in the sub amp's processing. Did you do your manual thing when you installed the external amps or did you just raise level to taste?

ps Do you use the Audyssey Editor App? You can do more with that to fine tune, or limit the frequencies effected to below schroeder....

 

[Jon.kin96]

Some have good experiences with it (I generally have), some just hate the very idea of it. YMMV. Distances may be more acoustically accurate than your tape measure, especially for a sub to account for inherent delays in the sub amp's processing. Did you do your manual thing when you installed the external amps or did you just raise level to taste?

I haven’t reran REW, but the EQ should be VERY similar so I’m not too worried about that. I did use my spl meter to set the levels to 75db at 0 on the AVR which is where I realized just how much I had to turn them up.

 

[Jon.kin96]

I will fully admit that even with them turned up that much in the AVR, they do sound vastly more clear and full running on these amps, which I’m loving.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd be curious if Audyssey would need to set your trim levels that high as well. Looking at the sensitivity spec Outlaw provides of .85V for unbalanced connection certainly shouldn't be an issue. Your speakers seem to be of reasonable sensitivity (the Polk RTi70) too....

 

[Jon.kin96]

I'd be curious if Audyssey would need to set your trim levels that high as well. Looking at the sensitivity spec Outlaw provides of .85V for unbalanced connection certainly shouldn't be an issue. Your speakers seem to be of reasonable sensitivity (the Polk RTi70) too....

so you understand my confusion. . The polls are 90db sensitivity. 850mv input sensitivity for the outlaw and the 3400 has been independently tested by other forum members to output up to 4.5 volts before clipping but the 1.4-2v that denon claims is about right for rms.

also, the guy that I bought them from, his trim levels were somewhere around -3/-4 for his towers on these exact same amps running off of a marantz which is supposed to have the same pre out voltage as this denon!

 

[Chrispy]

You didn't use an rca to xlr cable ? (had to ask )

 

[Chrispy]

@peng didn't you have some adventure with stated sensitivity for these amps?

 

[Jon.kin96]

You didn't use an rca to xlr cable ? (had to ask )

nope. Just an rca from the preout of the denon to the rca input on the back of the outlaw.

like I said, sound quality is almost night and day difference, for sure. I just feel like I’m definitely missing out on some output and dynamic range here because something isn’t right. I’m going to log all my current settings and then run audyssey now that I have an empty house and see what levels audyssey sets up for the towers.

 

[UCrazyKid]

If it works and it sounds good why does it matter where the gains are set? Just enjoy it.

 

[Jon.kin96]

If it works and it sounds good why does it matter where the gains are set? Just enjoy it.

fair point, I suppose....guess I was just worried about overworking the denon or having the pre out signal clipping.
I did end up running audyssey. It flattened the response a good bit, for sure. However it boosted the highs 2k and above which I’m not sure about. I’m very sensitive to high frequencies and it doesn’t seem that I can adjust it. Which sucks because it looks like the denon can EQ on something like 1/8 octaves whereas the built in user EQ is only full octave.

 

[Mountain Goat]

Listen to a variety of your best-recorded music for a while and see if your ears get used to it.

 

[Chrispy]

fair point, I suppose....guess I was just worried about overworking the denon or having the pre out signal clipping.
I did end up running audyssey. It flattened the response a good bit, for sure. However it boosted the highs 2k and above which I’m not sure about. I’m very sensitive to high frequencies and it doesn’t seem that I can adjust it. Which sucks because it looks like the denon can EQ on something like 1/8 octaves whereas the built in user EQ is only full octave.

This is the situation where perhaps using the Audyssey Editor App ($20 cost) will give you better results by limiting the frequency response so it doesn't eq above a frequency you designate. If you didn't know what I meant by schroeder, try this.

 

[dougi]

The gain of the Outlaw is 27dB. The gain inside the AVR would be 29dB as is normal I think for AVRs. Perhaps the RCA input is just one leg of the balanced input and the overall balanced gain is 27dB and RCA 6 dB less. You would then have 8dB less gain than the AVR amp.

 

[amper42]

I would always run Audyssey with any change in amp or speaker. You can always turn it off if you don't like it but that's the best way to get started. It's going to introduce less errors than a tape measure and an SPL meter.

 

[Jon.kin96]

I would always run Audyssey with any change in amp or speaker. You can always turn it off if you don't like it but that's the best way to get started. It's going to introduce less errors than a tape measure and an SPL meter.

yeah, I just let audyssey EQ the system and I honestly hate it. It boosted the highs above about 2k whereas I had them cut a bit. The sibilance is REAL now.