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Out for a few more days

D

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Hmmm. I had not considered this. I will have to look to see how much coverage we have. There is a gutter right next to where the leak was and I checked it during that storm and it was draining fine.
How do the downspouts coming off the gutters drain, do they go out and exit on the lawn, or are they tied into the sewer, or a drainage pipe of some kind?

I know this is difficult posting here, but I know you check this so thats why I’m posting a response.

It’s not uncommon in our area, or any area really for water to seep through a foundation because of a roof drainage problem. Something that definitely needs to be ruled out in your case. I’ve seen many things happen with gutters, and sometimes we find covers or screens dislodged, debris blocking the tube outlet, and causing the gutters to overflow instead of draining into the downspouts.

Just a thought.
 
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The roof is metal so sheds water excellently. Gutters are clean as they have covers. Somehow, some place was letting water to go into one room that is about 10 foot below surface. It would then run down by one wall and enter our entire downstairs with incredible force. It is still not clear what the cause really was. What the contractor do was a shotgun approach of digging by that first room 8 to 9 feet down, putting in gravel/stones, and an 8 foot deep by 24 inch basin. They also redid the french drain by the hill that is shedding ton of water.

As it happens, we have had days of dry weather. While this has made it nicer to work on the project, the real test is yet to come.

Meanwhile as i noted, the water is mysteriously disappearing from the gutters and my new pump but does not come out of the proper at the bottom of the hill where the exhaust drain is. Camera should be here tomorrow to hopefully shine some light on this mystery. I also bought a drain auger today. Took me all day driving around town to find one in stock!
I would have to think that you’re on the right track, and if you’ve never had a problem before, it makes sense that something is either blocked and back-flowing, or broken and never made it to the exit. Either way I hope you get to the solution quickly.
 
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amirm

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How do the downspouts coming off the gutters drain, do they go out and exit on the lawn, or are they tied into the sewer, or a drainage pipe of some kind?
They are all tided together and go to the same drain that I have the new pump connected to. During the flooding, I checked the exhaust and a lot of water was coming out of it. But maybe that was not all of it.
 

DonH56

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Hopefully it won't turn out to be what happened to a friend's cabin that flooded... Unbeknownst to him (or apparently anyone else) he built near an underground spring. The foundation work to build the place provided an opportunity for the water to redirect, which it did several years later after a heavy spring melt and subsequent runoff. It seems the ground settled around the spring (about 25~50 yards from his cabin) and found a new path leading to his foundation, where it proceeded to create a moat around the place. He had pre-installed a radon mitigation pipe around the foundation that they turned into a drain instead.

More likely something like a (different) friend's place in town when an unusually wet year formed a pool in the yard that eventually found it's way to his foundation and flooded the basement through a window well (seeped around the frame and wore a hole through).
 
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They are all tided together and go to the same drain that I have the new pump connected to. During the flooding, I checked the exhaust and a lot of water was coming out of it. But maybe that was not all of it.
Without knowing all of the variables, I would have to think that the problem is a blockage or a break in that main line, or an artery leading to it if there are any. Your camera may reveal that tomorrow. It’s definitely not uncommon for these to be blocked or broken.
 
D

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If I may, I also suggest that you have the gutters and downspouts checked on the house. Many many times we find that existing gutters and downspouts do not handle the volume of water that can come off of a roof. The gutters themselves either overflow, or the downspouts or the sewer line that they drain into are blocked, causing the gutter to overflow up towards the roof. I’m not saying that’s it, but it needs to be ruled out in my opinion.
 

BlackTalon

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The root cause of the leakage is likely one of the following:
  1. No foundation waterproofing system. This allows water draining down against the foundation to leak through cracks, construction joints, utility penetrations, etc. That is assuming the foundation wall is cast concrete. If it is CMU, then water can also soak through the blocks and mortar (at a minimum it would typically be covered with cementitious parging, but that is a brittle material and cracks will reflect through it.
  2. There is a foundation waterproofing system, but there is a breech (or several), or water is entering somewhere above the top termination of the membrane. Self-explanatory (hopefully).
  3. The water is entering the envelope above the foundation wall.
  4. Water is seeping up through the basement floor slab. This would be due to inadequate, failed or absent foundation and/ or underslab drainage.
Honestly, all of the information about surface and subsurface drainage -- including control of water coming off the roof -- is really just methods of reducing or (hopefully) eliminating the ability for water to get to the foundation. Which is rarely 100% successful over the medium- and long-term.

Now that there is relief from the new drainage system, I strongly recommend investigating where/ how the water entered in the first place. It could be as simple as a failed seal at a pipe penetration, or a crack in a concrete foundation wall that can be sealed with injected urethane gel. Or it could be a more widespread issue that will arise again if the new drainage system fails.

For Causes 1, 2 and 4 above the drainage should help. And the best way to effectively protect below-grade spaces is with a waterproofing membrane system combined with a foundation drainage system. But honestly if it is Cause 1 or 2 it would be good to know, so you can determine if is financially feasible to remedy (foundation wall excavation and waterproofing can easily run >$30k for residential properties). It is generally inexpensive to address a breech or two in a below-grade waterproofing system, so if Cause 2 is the issue it should be well worth making appropriate repairs.

And if it is Cause 3, you would want to address where/ how the water is entering the envelope above the top of the foundation wall. It may necessitate removing some in order to install new flashing at a material transition, or to seal a currently-unsealed penetration, etc. As with Cause 2, this would be relatively inexpensive unless a systemic issue is revealed.

A roadmap for how to investigate/ water test can be developed by reviewing where water was observed seeping into the basement, and also reviewing the conditions on the exterior if these locations. Water tests can largely be carried our with a regular garden hose; the main thing you need is some free time (maybe two days maximum).

But if you want to sleep comfortably, find out why and where water leaked in. Otherwise you will find yourself getting up multiple times in the middle of the night during heavy storms, looking for reassurance that the sump pump system is working. And you will also may have some disclosure to make when you eventually go to sell the property, which could impact the value.

Sorry for rambling on there. I'm happy to help you figure out a testing roadmap, and discuss the concepts.
 

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Good luck Amir!:)

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amirm

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Now that there is relief from the new drainage system, I strongly recommend investigating where/ how the water entered in the first place. It could be as simple as a failed seal at a pipe penetration, or a crack in a concrete foundation wall that can be sealed with injected urethane gel. Or it could be a more widespread issue that will arise again if the new drainage system fails.
Thanks for the advice. It is helpful, even though depressing on some level as well. :)

My builder who manages the project was worried about digging all the way down to the bottom of the foundation. There is a retaining wall about 6 feet away that has half ton boulders that go up 15 to 20 feet, holding neighbors house above it! The worry was that digging such a trench could undermine that and we would have far bigger problems. There was also some worry of the concrete wall holding our basement being undermined with soil now being loose around it.

My only choice is then to tear up the wall in our theater to look from inside. This wall was specially built, double wall on flexible channels for noise suppression. If we tear down that wall, it will be expensive to repair.

Maybe I wait until it fails again and then go after the drywall. I almost pulled it down during the flood but was too worried about the rest of the floor so spent our energy pumping that out.
 
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amirm

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No foundation waterproofing system. This allows water draining down against the foundation to leak through cracks, construction joints, utility penetrations, etc. That is assuming the foundation wall is cast concrete.
It is cast concrete. I was under the impression that it is always better to avoid water getting to the foundation than trying to block it. Are waterproofing measures effective? Is it as simple as slapping some compound on it?
 

BlackTalon

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My builder who manages the project was worried about digging all the way down to the bottom of the foundation. There is a retaining wall about 6 feet away that has half ton boulders that go up 15 to 20 feet, holding neighbors house above it! The worry was that digging such a trench could undermine that and we would have far bigger problems. There was also some worry of the concrete wall holding our basement being undermined with soil now being loose around it.

My only choice is then to tear up the wall in our theater to look from inside. This wall was specially built, double wall on flexible channels for noise suppression. If we tear down that wall, it will be expensive to repair.

Maybe I wait until it fails again and then go after the drywall. I almost pulled it down during the flood but was too worried about the rest of the floor so spent our energy pumping that out.
With respect to the retaining wall, if excavating your foundation undermines it that means that retaining wall is putting lateral pressure against the foundation wall of your house. That would be a poor design, and should not have made it through any Code approvals/ inspections. If it was built without permits, etc. then who knows, though. In fact if that wall does load your foundation wall it may have caused some cracks.

Anyway, I thing you will get useful information removing at least some of the interior wall finish system. At a minimum make some holes in it and look around as much as you can with a borescope.

It is cast concrete. I was under the impression that it is always better to avoid water getting to the foundation than trying to block it. Are waterproofing measures effective? Is it as simple as slapping some compound on it?
Knowing it is a reinforced concrete wall means the water is either coming through cracks/ joints penetrations -- which can be sealed with about a 95% success rate using gel injection techniques from the interior -- or it is coming over the top of the wall. Water testing can help confirm this, but ideally you would have at least some of the wall covering system removed in the area where leaks were experienced. Concrete itself is effective waterproof (yes, it has some permeability but you can pool water on a concrete deck and not get any leaks through the concrete), so the concept of full exterior waterproofing is not nearly as critical as if the wall was reinforced CMU.

It is correct that it is best to avoid getting water against foundations, but that is rarely possible for the whole life of the structure. Waterproofing + foundation drainage + good surface drainage is the key to keeping out water for the long term. But properly installed waterproofing and foundation drainage should be able to make up for suboptimum surface drainage.

Think of it this way: Good surface drainage (which you may now have thanks to the contractor) + deficient foundation waterproofing + poor foundation drainage is like having a transparent source, but speakers that only score a 1.0 and there is no room treatment. You'll feel good about the DAC, but you will be on edge whenever the system is in use. Conversely good surface drainage + good foundation waterproofing and good foundation drainage is like having a transparent source with speakers that score >8 combined with optimized room treatment and properly integrated subwoofers. You will smile whenever the system is being engaged.

It is possible to waterproof structures that are below the water table, but it is not as simple as "slapping some compound on it". The proper membrane system needs to be selected (there are a LOT of them, and many used for residential applications are essentially Snake Oil), it needs to be installed by professional waterproofers, and it needs to be installed within the environmental constraints outlined by the membrane manufacturer. That being said, most submerged/ partially submerged structures have allowances for minor amounts of leakage without impacting interior finishes. But for structures that are not submerged adding in a functional foundation drainage system removes most of the hydrostatic pressure, which helps keep the membrane system well within it's performance envelope. Good surface drainage is just the icing on the cake.

But again, since the wall is reinforced concrete targeted repairs from the interior should be feasible (water test first though to make sure the leaks do not originate higher). The cost of interior finish replacement is usually at least an order of magnitude less than excavate the exterior.
 
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amirm

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OK, I bought another borescope for indoor inspection. Have a couple of them already but they are a pain to use. Soon I will have enough tools to open up my own business! :)
 
D

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Eliminating much of, or rerouting the flow of water away from your foundation is a good proactive approach. Any waterproofing company worth it’s salt will access why its happening, and only then can they suggest an outside or inside waterproofing method. At the very least you can probably eliminate much of the problem before it becomes a problem. It’s usually never one variable, (although it can be) but a combination of reasons why the foundation becomes overwhelmed with water, and anything that you can do from above will help. If it’s coming through the floor that may be a different story. I’ll let you figure this out, and I have faith that you will Amir.
 
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amirm

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The camera came today. I could not fish it down from above as it hit a T and would not get past it. So I had to do it from the other end, pushing it up hill which was quite an effort and quite wet! Anyway, major discovery right where it got stuck and would not go farther:

Drain clog.jpg


So definitely roots in there. I can't quite tell what is past it. It seems to be bits and pieces of PVC pipe. If so, it would explain the ingress of the roots.

Sadly I was cheap and bought the $600 sewer camera without locator. :( Just bought another for $1,200 that has a low frequency locator but won't be here until Thursday. I may try to clean out the clog before it comes, haven't decided.

Can't believe they ran all these pipes outdoor and didn't put a single clean up port. :( Tried to dig part of the yard where it goes under and there are so many rocks and roots that I couldn't get down more than 6 inches in 20 minutes I worked at it. Will definitely have to remedy this for the future.
 

BlackTalon

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Good investigative work so far. The lack of cleanings, and use of a tee up near the start, are very unfortunate. But on the bright side it probably saved the contractor $100 on the install...
 
D

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The camera came today. I could not fish it down from above as it hit a T and would not get past it. So I had to do it from the other end, pushing it up hill which was quite an effort and quite wet! Anyway, major discovery right where it got stuck and would not go farther:

View attachment 185335

So definitely roots in there. I can't quite tell what is past it. It seems to be bits and pieces of PVC pipe. If so, it would explain the ingress of the roots.

Sadly I was cheap and bought the $600 sewer camera without locator. :( Just bought another for $1,200 that has a low frequency locator but won't be here until Thursday. I may try to clean out the clog before it comes, haven't decided.

Can't believe they ran all these pipes outdoor and didn't put a single clean up port. :( Tried to dig part of the yard where it goes under and there are so many rocks and roots that I couldn't get down more than 6 inches in 20 minutes I worked at it. Will definitely have to remedy this for the future.

I’m glad you are getting to the bottom of this. I assumed something changed, because it kind of appeared out of the blue as far as I can tell. It sounds like basically the drainage is backing up, and all the soil around your foundation is saturated. Now you know why, or a good part of why and you can address it, and possibly you don’t need to do anything with your foundation. Good job you’re getting there.

Edit;

You should be able to tell by how many feet of camera cable you are into the pipe approximately where the problem is. Looking at that picture I’m thinking that the pipe is broken somewhere and that’s allowing the roots to get in there. Possibly the ground shifted, or a void around the pipe shifted from all the rain. Normally on a PVC pipe, it’s not so easy for roots to get into it, and they get into a metal pipes connections much easier in my experience. Weeping willow trees used to cause havoc on our metal sewer line, nearly every year they had to be cleaned out.

As an alternative, there are tests that can be performed to tell you where the breakage or clog is. You can do a search online, but they are doing some different approaches today with sound waves, and other methods.
 
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bothu

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Just wondering if there is any leaks from where the electrical power cables come in to your house ?

I have friend in Norway that have issues with incoming water. After a long investigation they found that there was a leak around the incoming power and internet cables. Their house is laying in a hill slope like yours.

My mental support to you and your family, and hoping for a solid solution.

/ Bo Thunér, Linköping, Sweden.
 
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amirm

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Got the first nonstop rain and after 24 hours basement fully flooded again. Started to rip out walls. No clue yet but it is nice to see the river by the foundation. Now need to figure out the ingres point while making sure house doesn't float away! Won't be around much until I get to bottom of this....
 

antcollinet

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Got the first nonstop rain and after 24 hours basement fully flooded again. Started to rip out walls. No clue yet but it is nice to see the river by the foundation. Now need to figure out the ingres point while making sure house doesn't float away! Won't be around much until I get to bottom of this....
Ah no! What a nightmare. Good luck in your search for a solution.
 

kschmit2

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Got the first nonstop rain and after 24 hours basement fully flooded again. Started to rip out walls. No clue yet but it is nice to see the river by the foundation. Now need to figure out the ingres point while making sure house doesn't float away! Won't be around much until I get to bottom of this...
Wow, sorry to hear that. Hope you can remedy this quickly.
 
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