Ortofon 2M Red – upgrade recommendations welcome :-)

[Pauli]

See my setup below.

I’d like to replace the Ortofon 2M Red with a better cartridge. Doing that step, I would like to leave the Ortofon brand behind. So any non-Ortofon recommendations fitting in a 200-Euros-budget would be much appreciated.

• Technics SL-1500C w/ internal phonostage

• Ortofon 2M Red

• Denon AVR-X3100W [for »emotional/nostalgic« reasons – but it works]

• 2x Wharfedale Diamond 12.2

• [Listening room: 12 sqm]

Thanks!

 

[BenWatts]

Don’t know if you had opportunity to try fine line or shibata… to me « , Audio Technica provides the best quality/price ratio.
AT95VM SH for shibata for instance can be a good solution for you. Depending on your taste. People can feel it a bit dry.
To me, AT95VM are great cartridges

 

[JeffS7444]

I'm in a similar quandary, and I've been eying one or two different Audio Technica cartridges, but what I like about Ortofon 2M (despite being relatively costly for the features offered) is that I've measured my own 2M Red and find it is capable of good frequency response and crosstalk when set up correctly.

 

[DSJR]

The 2M Blue is the first step, as the diamond is better and surface noise should be reduced (I love the funky vibe of my 2M Red, but it kills noisy records as its OM10 ancestor does. The Blue can be a little fussier in setup (maybe add 1/10g downforce and see what heppens, but at least the tip is elliptical (so not uber-fussy as line or Shibata types can be ime) and the body identical.

The 2M Bronze I love so much, has the plastic 'outer material' the same as the Black I understand. Whether this makes for any real subjective difference I really don't know, but the Bronze stylus will happily fit the body that came with the Red on your Technics.

So, a hierarchy if required with minimal fuss other than stylus costs (the Blue's not as expensive as the Stylus 20 for some reason - maybe production numbers these days aiding costs here?)

As for the evergreen AT VM95 models, the tips are excellent, but you're stuck with the very basic internals, offering reduced and sometimes lop-sided separation over say, a VM540 which here is under £200 now. Sweet spot value-wise is the VM95ML, but whether the VM95SH is a better sound than a VM540 with superior internals, I really don't know.

Bearing in mind a pal who's owned two VM540s in the past, I'm wondering if the VMx740 may not be a better bet for the Technics should you want to change cartridge brands? Th emetal mount seemed in previous 740 form, to calm the sound down a touch (this using a totally inert Rega tonearm!), both measured and heard (when Lowbeats.de did measurements of such things as well as posting sound-bites).

These two brands do seem rather above the others. Nagaoka seems popular but prices have rocketed over and above the automatic hikes post 2008. I fear Sumiko have done similar and the heart of their posh looking MM models seems directly descended from 1970s MM types from different manufacturers and with an 'old fashioned' balance in many models I've seen.

 

[DSJR]

I'm in a similar quandary, and I've been eying one or two different Audio Technica cartridges, but what I like about Ortofon 2M (despite being relatively costly for the features offered) is that I've measured my own 2M Red and find it is capable of good frequency response and crosstalk when set up correctly.

As I've tried to say above -

My 2M red 'sounds' great with a good clean pressing, but like my OM10 (a leaner dryer kind of presentation), it hates noisy pressings. The Blue, like my 520mk2 and memories of the OM20, should sort this while keeping the same 'lively engaging tone.' I've seen 2M Blue styli for not a huge amount over £100 (E120), so worth shopping around. The 2M Bronze is sadly, a massive price jump, but if you play a lot of well mastered digital material, you'd appreciate it I believe. The Black is a subjective refinement of the Bronze I gather from various sources.

Not shilling this seller, but example -

https://www.av.com/Hi-Fi/Ortofon-2M-Blue-Replacement-Stylus/491I?source=aw&sv1=affiliate&sv_campaign_id=696205&awc=3586_1779380785_7afb6bc48fa79cdd3c5648586b984175

Thomann UK sell it here for £130 inc P&P and they're a very well known seller

This oldie is still remembering when cartridges and styli were a small fraction of the costs today and many brands have shot up in price since 2008. The Ortofon 2Ms looked expensive when first launched, but the Red and Blue have stayed reasonably stable in retail prices over the fifteen years or more since they were launched. ATs have also stayed reasonable for what they offer, the VMx models actually reducing the price of the VM540...

 

[Ruediger]

The 2M allow to just put a needle from a higher grade model in - if I am not mistaken that was a big selling point. Personally I liked the Shibata needle when I had the 2M Blue.

But went on to Vinyl Master Silver (major upgrade IMO) - but when I see that a new (VM540?) needle will today cost me hundreds of $ I don't know if I stay there.

With Technics drives I also had the classic Denon DL-103 - not bad, but not everyone wants MC.

With a mounted system, supposing it works well with the Technics arm, headshell etc. - I would not make this about brands. But about how good it shall be and what it will cost. Also taking into account new needles in the future.

 

[Pauli]

Ortofon is out of the question, as I tried to state above.

 

[DSJR]

The 2M allow to just put a needle from a higher grade model in - if I am not mistaken that was a big selling point. Personally I liked the Shibata needle when I had the 2M Blue.

But went on to Vinyl Master Silver (major upgrade IMO) - but when I see that a new (VM540?) needle will today cost me hundreds of $ I don't know if I stay there.

With Technics drives I also had the classic Denon DL-103 - not bad, but not everyone wants MC.

With a mounted system, supposing it works well with the Technics arm, headshell etc. - I would not make this about brands. But about how good it shall be and what it will cost. Also taking into account new needles in the future.

2M Blue is a naked elliptical over the bonded type in the 2M red...

VM Silver /540mk2 is great and equivalent to the 2M Black I believe.

The Denon 103 is an aged piece of history (like I'm fast becoming!!! ). It has a conical tip which loses high frequencies towards end of side. An analogue only system won't show it, but offer up a CD synced to the vinyl and where the tone may not be hugely different at the beginning of side, by side end, the DL103 sounds dull as ditchwater. It does, honestly, and I have vivid memories of doing just that. ML and Shibata tips seem to lose far less hf at side end and it's been measured by many people over the years.

 

[DSJR]

Ortofon is out of the question, as I tried to state above.

Then I still feel to get the VM540 [SEE BELOW] and be done with it if you possibly can. It works well in the Technics arm and forgive me for using UK prices here... DAMN, the 540 was under £200 late last year, it's back to £229 now

So, back to the VM95ML which I still think is the best value in that range. The 95SH should offer a refinement up-top however. (There was a YouTube vid where the three OC9 models were compared, elliptical, MicroLine and lastly Shibata, the latter having the extra 'resolution' of the ML, but offered with so much more delicacy. The elliptical was okay until the other two were played, showing what else was possible).


HOLD ON - if £229 (E240?) can be reached, AT offer the VM740xML for basically the same price as the older 540 model -

AT-VM740xML

All VMx cartridges feature a generator with paratoroidal coil construction: two coils per channel – one stacked behind the other – for greatly improved efficiency. A center shield plat ...

www.audio-technica.com

 

[JeffS7444]

Hifi News test report regarded Ortofon 2M series as a "modern" design as indicated by the flat frequency response, and contrasted with a popular older design (Shure M97-series), which IIRC, had rolled-off frequency response starting at around 5 kHz. It ought to be pretty easy to simulate that "smooth and warm" vintage sound with a bit of equalization.

OTOH, some very costly cartridges are anything but neutral:
https://hifinews.com/content/koetsu-coralstone-cartridge-lab-report

I've got a couple of albums in both digital and vinyl formats, and indeed, when I compare the sound of the 2M Red playback versus digital, they're more alike than different.

 

[Ruediger]

VM Silver with naked Fritz Gyger needle is the thing I would want any day.

But 600 € for a 540mk2 needle replacement... not funny.

Maybe the AudioTechnica choices make more sense for the budget mentioned.

I had some OM10s and a <100€ Shure with Technics drives, but can't recommend any of those. For DJing the OM10 was popular. Put a lot of weight on, heavily process the signal, there you go.. but good sound has other meanings too.

 

[Pauli]

Thanks for the input!

I am pretty uncertain whether my setup may be »worth it« to add a 300 Euro cartridge. Won’t switching to an AT-VM95ML be enough for my ears?

 

[digitalfrost]

Don’t know if you had opportunity to try fine line or shibata… to me « , Audio Technica provides the best quality/price ratio.
AT95VM SH for shibata for instance can be a good solution for you. Depending on your taste. People can feel it a bit dry.
To me, AT95VM are great cartridges

I agree but I would prefer the Microline.

Thanks for the input!

I am pretty uncertain whether my setup may be »worth it« to add a 300 Euro cartridge. Won’t switching to an AT-VM95ML be enough for my ears?

It's an insanely good cartridge, or it's the needle that does the magic. I've used AT-33PTGII before, when it broke I got the 95ML to tide me over. Ended up keeping the 95ML.

 

[JeffS7444]

As far as I can tell, Ortofon 2M-series cartridges are high-compliance types, rated by the manufacturer at 20-22 um/mN. Subjectively, I get the sense that 2M Red sonics are smoother when the cart is mounted on a Dual ULM tonearm, versus my A-T LP120, which has a chrome plated brass arm tube which has a bit of heft to it. Wonder if the OP would benefit from a moderately less compliant cartridge than the 2M series? I previously paired a Denon DL103 with stock Technics SL1200 Mk II arm, and thought the combo worked best when I added more mass to the headshell. It's much easier to add mass to a tonearm than to remove it!

 

[USER]

I agree but I would prefer the Microline.

It's an insanely good cartridge, or it's the needle that does the magic. I've used AT-33PTGII before, when it broke I got the 95ML to tide me over. Ended up keeping the 95ML.

Because of its shape the microline should wear out more slowly than a shibata and possibly play a bit better toward the end of the record (though not sure if it would be audible before wear). It's a superior (and often cheaper!!) stylus type. But, of course, its implementation is key (and possibly dependent on load settings). We don't have an ATVM95SH in our measurement library, however, so I'm not sure how it is tuned. The ATVM95ML will get you everything you need, however, as there is almost no information above 10kHz on records.

Here's the much more expensive VM750SH. It requires less capacitance, which you may not be able to offer it, and when properly set-up you likely can't tell it apart from el cheapo above.

No one should be using an elliptical stylus as of 1980 much less 2026. And based upon what I have seen in our library, I'd stay away from Ortofon as well.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Skip to the index. After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script, SJPlot, written by the legendary @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This all assumes proper compatibility with the tonearm, of course.

 

[Ruediger]

I previously paired a Denon DL103 with stock Technics SL1200 Mk II arm, and thought the combo worked best when I added more mass to the headshell. It's much easier to add mass to a tonearm than to remove it!

I always found the old SL12 and SL13 tonearms more on the sturdy, rough side. To the extent that weight and antiskate could not go too low as they wouldn't track as good anymore.

They def. profit from weight at the headshell. Be it the pickup, the headshell or extra weight. Worst performance was with one of these extralight headshells - good looking, but only makes sense if the pickup is really heavy.

 

[Pauli]

BTW: Here’s an observation that I find hard to evaluate:

My still pretty new Technics SL-1500C w/ Ortofon 2M Red shows a slightly poorer tracking ability compared to the combo I had before: vintage Sony PS-X60 w/ AT-VM95E. »Evaluation problem« with this: The test record used in both cases is several decades old.

 

[DSJR]

As far as I can tell, Ortofon 2M-series cartridges are high-compliance types, rated by the manufacturer at 20-22 um/mN. Subjectively, I get the sense that 2M Red sonics are smoother when the cart is mounted on a Dual ULM tonearm, versus my A-T LP120, which has a chrome plated brass arm tube which has a bit of heft to it. Wonder if the OP would benefit from a moderately less compliant cartridge than the 2M series? I previously paired a Denon DL103 with stock Technics SL1200 Mk II arm, and thought the combo worked best when I added more mass to the headshell. It's much easier to add mass to a tonearm than to remove it!

The DL103 loves a very massy arm and yeah, Art of Sound forum had wild shenanigans when the site owner was using one in a Technics in pre Covid times, the latter being heavily (excessively?) modified over a few years (@Mart68 will remember )

The 2M Red and Blue are is specified at 1.8g downforce as optimum. The Bronze and Black is 1.5g downforce (all from Ortofon website).

The OM10 would bottom out surely with much over the recommended 1.5g downforce as the clearance isn't very generous on my new stylus samples (my OM5e, 10 and 30 styli are all but identical here).

The SL1500 arm (as used in the 1300 and 1400 decks too) was often used with the 1g tracking V15 III cartridge. The bias-anti-skate adjustment was marginal at this downforce I discovered, but it could be made to work (I have a pals SL1500 here in long-term storage). A modern solid Technics-style headshell and additional 3mm cork mat to bring VTA into line, works a treat here I discovered. The tonearm bearings may need gently tweaking as both 1500 arms had play in them. I do have a suitable tool to adjust however... The later 1200mk2 on arms would be different and better adjusted from memory.

Apologies for the lengthy posts above, as 'turntables' were my career thing back then and limited funds aside, I still take a huge interest, even buying a cheap Pro-Ject Essential deck with delicate unipivot arm (easily damaged in subsequent transit sadly due to lack of owner-experience when shipping it seems) to discover how good or bad it was (it turned out a curates egg!).

One gentler-presentation cartridge that may not be for ASR members with established 'digital sourced' systems, is the Rega ND3 (UK £175). The response is 'restrained' above 1kHz but there doesn't seem to be a ~12kHz peakiness to it as the previous Elys and Exact had. A p[al of mine with trusted ears loves his and finds vinyl listening a pleasure rather than a potential chore as previous pickups did.

 

[Mart68]

The DL103 loves a very massy arm and yeah, Art of Sound forum had wild shenanigans when the site owner was using one in a Technics, the latter being heavily (excessively?) modified over a few years (@Mart68 will remember )

I remember him using a Denon DS1 which was a whole different ballgame. I was never keen on the DL103 or its variants; they were fun but crude.

That deck probably is 'excessively modified' but it is very, very good. He took it too a meet one time, it's the only time I ever saw people applaud a recording.

 

[Pauli]

The tonearm bearings may need gently tweaking as both 1500 arms had play in them.

How exactly would I check whether my SL-1500C’s tonearm has play too or not?