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Optimum amplifier and speaker pairing

Goodman

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Are there any test or measurements that will predict which amplifiers will give best results with a particular speaker? Speaker manufacturers at audio shows demonstrate their speakers with different brands of amplifiers and different classes of amplifiers; I am sure they try many before choosing the one that best pairs up with the speakers they have on demonstration...I don't think sensitivity and impedance testing will tell the whole, or even part of the story. Am I wrong? Why do some well known brands of audiophile speakers recommend the use of tube amps almost exclusively (Zu Audio comes to mind)?
 
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egellings

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I can't give specifics, but if you use competent solid state amplifiers, they will sound the same if they are in fact competent, i.e. low distortion, flat FR, and low Zo (output impedance). It's easy for those amps to achieve that. Tube amps are mushier (higher Zo) and their output voltage will be somewhat swayed by the characteristics of the speaker to which they are connected and that will affect SQ. Now it just might happen that the tube amp-speaker interaction for the particular setup you are hearing happens to be euphonic, such as a slightly chubby bass, and that is in the ear of the beholder. Another pair of ears might not like it.
 

DVDdoug

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Why do some well known brands of audiophile speakers recommend the use of tube amps almost exclusively (Zu Audio comes to mind)?
A good tube amp will be independent of the load (when operated within it's specs) just like a good solid state amp.

If the amp has a (relatively) high output impedance there will be a bump in the frequency response at the speaker's resonance and the other normal impedance variations across the frequency band will cause additional irregularities in the frequency response. In the real world this all gets pretty unpredictable and the amplifier's "impedance" might be inductive and that adds more complication so you'd just have to try a particular speaker with a particular amp.

Speakers (and headphones) are designed, tested, and spec'd with a low impedance "constant voltage" source. Otherwise the performance is unpredictable.

and different classes of amplifiers;
Again, a good amplifier can use tubes, be solid state with integrated circuits or discrete components, use bipolar transistors or FETs/MOSFETs and can be class A, class A/B or class D and as long as it has low-noise, low-distortion, and flat frequency response (and low output impedance) it doesn't matter what's inside. Of course the manufacturer will tout whatever is inside as a "feature" or "benefit" but these are just engineering or design trade-offs and economic decisions. (A tube amplifier is much more expensive to make that a solid state class-D amplifier with the same output power and performance.)
 

FeddyLost

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Are there any test or measurements that will predict which amplifiers will give best results with a particular speaker?
There are not.
Most measurements helps to predict if performance definitely will be suboptimal (i.e. if you have low impedance speaker and your amp have really bad HD+IMD at low impedance or you have high sensitivity speaker and your amp have high HD at milliwatts).
Also it heavily depends on what do you mean by "best results".
As was mentioned here on forum, none of tested people preferred original track when compared it to tracks with added 2nd and 3rd harmonics...

PS Regarding pairing ... sometimes it's job for manufacturer, sometimes for distributor. Distributor may pair speakers with electronics available or with more profitable brand even if there are something better. No sane salesman will deliberately bring to expo something that he can't sell. Distributor just needs money, otherwise they would not care about customer satisfaction at all, and they definitely can't dive deep into all possible opinions.
 

egellings

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Bryston 4Bst is a very competent S.S. amp, and I use a copy of that as a standard to compare (by listening) tube amps.
 

egellings

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Amplifier as pet. Some like cats, others dogs, others lizards. Tubes, MOSFETs, bipolars...
 

Jim Matthews

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But, you can't give specifics. Just give an example limited to competent solid state, but evidently incompetent tubes, and then twist your argument anyway you like. No wonder we elected Mr Trump president.
Are we reading the same response?
Egellings quoted Gospel.

Your question might seem simple, but it belies ignorance of the topic.

Vacuum tube amps do not behave in a linear fashion across all loads, at all frequencies. That doesn't mean they're unpleasant, or unsatisfactory.

 

egellings

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I did not vote for Dear Leader as president of the US. I'm sorry, but you are going to have a really hard time getting a tube amp to have as low a Zo as achievable with S.S. designs due to limited open loop gain and instability that would happen if you went for a lot of that. Those dad-burned coupling caps & xfmrs get in the way. My (store-bought) S.S. amp is spec'ed in the milliohms for Zo. If a speaker with a purely resistive impedance were possible, then the tube amp & SS ones could sound the same, since with the tube amp, you'd get a little voltage division, but no FR changes with the resistive load. Cone damping is another matter though. I say, enjoy whatever tickles your nun handles. There are no perfectionist audio police that are going to bust the door down and arrest the listener enjoying their 300B SET amp through odd looking horn speakers.
 
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Goodman

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Are we reading the same response?
Egellings quoted Gospel.

Your question might seem simple, but it belies ignorance of the topic.

Vacuum tube amps do not behave in a linear fashion across all loads, at all frequencies. That doesn't mean they're unpleasant, or unsatisfactory.


Actually ,Jim, I am far from ignorant on the topic, my question was rhetorical; I threw it out there to see if I would get any intelligent answers from the folks who measure but do very little comparative listening.
 

Jim Matthews

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Actually ,Jim, I am far from ignorant on the topic, my question was rhetorical; I threw it out there to see if I would get any intelligent answers from the folks who measure but do very little comparative listening.
Post #8 replies to "don'ttrustauthority" rather than your OP.
 

Duke

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Are there any test or measurements that will predict which amplifiers will give best results with a particular speaker?


Picking the "best" amp for a particular speaker from measurements alone is probably unrealistic, but you can pick a best amplifier type. And by "type" in this context I mean, constant-voltage (typical of solid state) or constant-power (typical of tubes) or constant-current (rare but Nelson Pass makes some).

Most loudspeakers are designed for constant-voltage amps, wherein the amp puts out increase wattage into the impedance dips, and decreased wattage into the impedance peaks. Some loudspeakers are designed for constant-power amplifiers, wherein the amp puts out approximately the same wattage regardless of the impedance curve. A few loudspeakers are designed for constant-current amps, wherein the amp puts out increased wattage into the impedance peaks and decreased wattage into the impedance dips, essentially the exact opposite of a constant-voltage amp.

None of these behaviors are necessarily "ideal", but the default is to design speakers for constant-voltage amplifiers, since this behavior is typical of solid state amps, which are by far the most widely used. There are arguments for other amplifier types which imo are valid but not the focus of this post.

Why do some well known brands of audiophile speakers recommend the use of tube amps almost exclusively (Zu Audio comes to mind)?


This won't be the whole story, but it will be part of it.

Loudspeakers have one or more impedance peaks in the bass region, and a constant-voltage (typical solid state) amplifier delivers reduced power into these peaks. BUT a tube amp will deliver approximately the same amount of power into these peaks as into the rest of the spectrum, resulting in a potential "free lunch" of deeper and/or more powerful bass.

So if we wanted to take advantage of that, or other, characteristics of tube amps, we would design the speaker to behave well when driven by a (constant-power) tube amp. The result might not behave well when driven by a (constant-voltage) solid state amp.

Let's look at an example of measurements of a speaker designed specifically to work well with tube amps: The Audio Note AN-E. Here is the frequency response curve that John Atkinson of Stereophile measured, and note that he used a solid-state amp:

AN.E.spl.jpg

Looks pretty awful, doesn't it?

But remember this speaker was designed to work best with tube amps, which deliver approximately the same power across the impedance curve. Let's have a look at that impedance curve:

AN.E.imp.jpg


So a solid state amp will be delivering less power than the speaker designer intended into the impedance peaks, and more power than the speaker designer intended into the impedance dips. You might find this interesting, because we are going to uncover competence on the part of designer Peter Qvortrup that is not obvious from the measurements.

Let's start in the treble and work our way down, noting how a tube amp's behavior into that impedance curve would change the speaker's frequency response.

At 10 kHz the speaker has a frequency response peak with the solid state amp, but the impedance curve has a dip in that region, so a tube amp would be putting out less power (relative to a solid state amp) in that region, and that peak would come down.

Just north of 1 kHz the speaker has a dip with the solid state amp, but the impedance curve has a peak in that region, so a tube amp would be putting out more power and that dip would be filled in.

Just north of 200 Hz the speaker has a peak with the solid state amp, but the impedance curve has a dip in that region, so a tube amp would be putting out less power and that peak would come down.

Centered on about 50-Hz ballpark the speaker's bass response has a broad "saddle" with the solid state amp, but the impedance curve has a peak in that region, so a tube amp would be putting out more power and that saddle would be filled in. (This is the "free lunch" that I mentioned earlier.)

At 30 Hz the speaker has a small peak with the solid state amp, but the impedance curve has a dip in that region, so a tube amp would be putting out less power and that peak would come down.

So as I hope you can see, there would be a welcome synergy between this speaker and a tube amp. I'm not saying the net result would be ASR-approved flatness, but it would be a significant improvement over the results with the solid state amp.

(In the absence of such detailed information about a speaker, follow the manufacturer's recommendation for amplifier types. If I was tasked with pairing amps with a specific speaker, I would cheat and research which amps the speaker manufacturer had chosen to use at audio shows, and those amps would be the ones on my short list.)

[Off-topic:] One final comment about this design: The (on-axis) frequency response curve we have predicted by assuming a tube amp instead of a solid-state amp would still be recessed in the 3-8 kHz ballpark. But this is at the bottom end of the tweeter's range, where there is excess off-axis energy, so we would WANT the on-axis energy to dip a bit in this region for the sake of good in-room frequency response. Here you can see that off-axis energy flare in the 3-8 kHz region:

AN.E.offaxis.jpg


Many people have looked at Stereophile's frequency response measurements of the Audio Note AN-E and concluded that the design is fatally flawed, but if we factor in the recommended amplification type and the off-axis response, the picture changes. In addition, the low frequency response is deliberately gently downward-sloping across the bass region to take advantage of boundary reinforcement from nearby walls. I have no affiliation with Audio Note.
 
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