Optical/laser pickup

[BDWoody]

I did a little looking around to see if anyone has used laser technology to read the grooves on vinyl rather than some kind of direct contact stylus, and other than a couple of attempts in the 80's-90's, it looks like it hasn't ever gotten traction.
I now see DS audio with an optical cartridge, and wondered if anyone has looked into them.

https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ds-e1-【new】/

 

[anmpr1]

Amplitude sensing cartridges have been around, but I've not seen an optical design like this. Kind of reminds me (in electrical principle) of the Sao Win FET cartride (not his strain gauge cart), substituting the FET generator for an optical component. I have no reason to think this wouldn't be something that works well. Not sure how long a company making something this unique could be around, but at these prices anyone interested is probably not worried about cost.

I'm more interested in the review, which is a hoot. Where do these guys get analogies and descriptions? Do they make them up, or is there a secret book they pull phrases from? A guy named Ken Kessler:

First, Ken, 'begging the question' is a logical term that means presuming a proposition is true before it has been proved. What you meant to write was, 'This raises the question, why pay more?" Although at $3000.00 USD, it's not like you are not already paying enough.

On ‘Live And Let Die’ ... the DS-E1 nearly matched the Master 1 for conveying the bombastic slam of the explosions, while never obscuring the barely audible information underneath the detonation. I know when I'm looking to buy, I'm looking for bombastic slam and barely audible information under the detonation.

I even forced myself to listen to songs I find so dire that I knew I could not be distracted by the music. Thanks, Ken. We appreciate the suffering you go through, when reviewing these expensive toys.

Miracles don’t happen that often, so I’m not keen to attribute metaphysical properties to the DS-E1, but damn, it sounded nearly listenable... Do you know what metaphysics are, Ken? Miracles? Is this a religious thing you've found?

The DS-E1's wonderful marriage of lushness and scale, augmented by precision and detail of lab-grade analytical prowess actually altered the experience for me... I don't even know what I could write to make fun of this bizarre statement.

Its miracle-working abilities faltered at the risible ‘A Simple DesultoryPhilippic’, which remains Paul Simon’s most embarrassing moment, but the lushness and delicacy of ‘Scarborough Fair/Canticle’ wrapped the song in an embrace that suited it to its core. You’d almost believe that Simon and Garfunkel were British rather than a brace of New Yorkers. Will it make Furtwangler sound like Toscanini? What about that, Ken?

Proving further that the DS-E1 is a bargain... I knew that the obligatory 'this multi-thousand dollar thing is really a bargain' would show up sooner or later. Is there a reviewer out there who gets this high priced stuff to play with for free, that doesn't call the products bargains? That's the most overused nonsensical phrase in high-end reviewing.

 

[BDWoody]

Amplitude sensing cartridges have been around, but I've not seen an optical design like this. Kind of reminds me (in electrical principle) of the Sao Win FET cartride (not his strain gauge cart), substituting the FET generator for an optical component. I have no reason to think this wouldn't be something that works well. Not sure how long a company making something this unique could be around, but at these prices anyone interested is probably not worried about cost.

I'm more interested in the review, which is a hoot. Where do these guys get analogies and descriptions? Do they make them up, or is there a secret book they pull phrases from? A guy named Ken Kessler:

First, Ken, 'begging the question' is a logical term that means presuming a proposition is true before it has been proved. What you meant to write was, 'This raises the question, why pay more?" Although at $3000.00 USD, it's not like you are not already paying enough.

On ‘Live And Let Die’ ... the DS-E1 nearly matched the Master 1 for conveying the bombastic slam of the explosions, while never obscuring the barely audible information underneath the detonation. I know when I'm looking to buy, I'm looking for bombastic slam and barely audible information under the detonation.

I even forced myself to listen to songs I find so dire that I knew I could not be distracted by the music. Thanks, Ken. We appreciate the suffering you go through, when reviewing these expensive toys.

Miracles don’t happen that often, so I’m not keen to attribute metaphysical properties to the DS-E1, but damn, it sounded nearly listenable... Do you know what metaphysics are, Ken? Miracles? Is this a religious thing you've found?

The DS-E1's wonderful marriage of lushness and scale, augmented by precision and detail of lab-grade analytical prowess actually altered the experience for me... I don't even know what I could write to make fun of this bizarre statement.

Its miracle-working abilities faltered at the risible ‘A Simple DesultoryPhilippic’, which remains Paul Simon’s most embarrassing moment, but the lushness and delicacy of ‘Scarborough Fair/Canticle’ wrapped the song in an embrace that suited it to its core. You’d almost believe that Simon and Garfunkel were British rather than a brace of New Yorkers. Will it make Furtwangler sound like Toscanini? What about that, Ken?

Proving further that the DS-E1 is a bargain... I knew that the obligatory 'this multi-thousand dollar thing is really a bargain' would show up sooner or later. Is there a reviewer out there who gets this high priced stuff to play with for free, that doesn't call the products bargains? That's the most overused nonsensical phrase in high-end reviewing.

I agree...it is almost like a contest between them all to see who can use the most sensually evocative prose...

I remember a very successful yacht salesman I learned a lot from years ago... He said the guys that talk about horsepower, materials, Hull design, etc...will very seldom do well. What he did was talk about how they'd be out on that private island with their friends, or the attention they'd get when they'd pull up to a new location, or how the master stateroom has a full Jacuzzi tub for the wife to relax...etc. People bought the lifestyle and expected experience...stats and details are just details...to many...

 

[mansr]

I did a little looking around to see if anyone has used laser technology to read the grooves on vinyl rather than some kind of direct contact stylus, and other than a couple of attempts in the 80's-90's, it looks like it hasn't ever gotten traction.
I now see DS audio with an optical cartridge, and wondered if anyone has looked into them.

https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ds-e1-【new】/

The trouble with reading a vinyl record optically is that any speck of dust will be interpreted as part of the signal rather than swept aside by a stylus. Unless the record is meticulously cleaned before each use, playback will have a lot more pops than with a conventional system. Then again, for those who enjoy the vinyl "experience" that might be a good thing.

 

[anmpr1]

The trouble with reading a vinyl record optically is that any speck of dust will be interpreted as part of the signal rather than swept aside by a stylus. Unless the record is meticulously cleaned before each use, playback will have a lot more pops than with a conventional system. Then again, for those who enjoy the vinyl "experience" that might be a good thing.

This device does not 'read' the groove optically, that is, like the old laser beam turntable was supposed to do. Instead, it translates stylus motion into electrical current via an optical circuit. It has a cantilever and stylus, just like a regular cartridge.

 

[captain paranoia]

First, Ken, 'begging the question' is a logical term that means presuming a proposition is true before it has been proved.

That begs the question of where you're getting your definitions from...

"Begging the question" means to invite the obvious question.

 

[anmpr1]

That begs the question of where you're getting your definitions from...

"Begging the question" means to invite the obvious question.

You can find a definition of the phrase in any standard logic textbook. Below is a place you can go to find out:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/53/Begging-the-Question

When a person argues this way, they are presuming what has yet to be proven as part of their proof. It has nothing to do with the way Kessler used the phrase, although it is commonly used as "prompts the question".

PS: To move on, I will admit that the phrase has a slang sense, or a common undisciplined usage, that is removed from its original and proper meaning, which flowed from Aristotelian analytic logic. So it is a 'sloppy' use of language. We could say that. But given the undisciplined and sloppy language found in Kessler's review, I guess it makes sense in his overall context.

 

[pozz]

Definitely interesting.

 

[anmpr1]

Definitely interesting.

What these designs do, which could be a plus, is to obviate the need for a phono preamp. That's part of the package deal. However, whether the package is a 'good' deal, at 3 large, is an open question.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I did a little looking around to see if anyone has used laser technology to read the grooves on vinyl rather than some kind of direct contact stylus, and other than a couple of attempts in the 80's-90's, it looks like it hasn't ever gotten traction.
I now see DS audio with an optical cartridge, and wondered if anyone has looked into them.

https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ds-e1-【new】/

This has been reviewed by HiFi News.
Even the Master 1 had similar but slightly worse performance to other cartridges, including a peaky treble and bass boost with slightly worse distortion than usual.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/ds-audio-master-1-cartridge-lab-report

 

[gene_stl]

"Back in the day" and I mean really back in the day Bourns Electronics who made precision potentiometers started a subsidiary called Euphonics which had the "MiniConic" phono cartridge. This was based on an elastic material with semiconductor properties. It was in the late sixties.
It failed as quickly as it popped up. It was supposed to put out a very high level signal that needed less gain and yielded a high signal to noise ratio. I think they had terrible reliability problems.

When I think of a laser phono pickup I think of various attempts to build non contact vinyl pickups non of which seem to have been very successful. Some had prices of $30,000 for a complete record player. They maybe only built a few probably by hand.

I think it will be possible for some one to use a stylus to cause modulation of light beams somehow to do the job a phono cartridge does and maybe do it with lower effective tip mass, lower stylus force and probably better performance. But I don't think anyone has actually done it yet. I would be interested in hearing about it if I am wrong.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Audio/60s/Audio-1966-03.pdf

See page 67 for the Euphonics Miniconic advert and page 51 for a competing solid state cartridge from Grado. 1966 Audio magazine was great!
there is also an article on measurements by the late great Norman Crowhurst a GIANT in the audio electronics field.

 

[mannye]

Did I miss it or has no one mentioned the ELP? Are we only talking about laser or optical carts?

http://www.elpj.com/

 

[mannye]

This device does not 'read' the groove optically, that is, like the old laser beam turntable was supposed to do. Instead, it translates stylus motion into electrical current via an optical circuit. It has a cantilever and stylus, just like a regular cartridge.

I was reading the material and couldn't help but think that this is just a miniature AD/DA converter positioned behind a conventional stylus. To be precise, and AD converter that sends a signal to a DA converter. I dunno... haven't heard it though, so anything is possible.

I would be interested in matching it up against a $3000 cart/preamp combo.

 

[gene_stl]

Yes that one , I didn't know the name nor even whether it is the same one. There have been ones originating in china and germany and maybe other parts of europe. One of them decades ago made a tour like the Okto Research gear is doing and you had to put a deposit down to get to hear them at whatever dealers hosted them. I have never heard whether or not they work well, but I would only believe it when I "see" it.

 

[mannye]

Yes that one , I didn't know the name nor even whether it is the same one. There have been ones originating in china and germany and maybe other parts of europe. One of them decades ago made a tour like the Okto Research gear is doing and you had to put a deposit down to get to hear them at whatever dealers hosted them. I have never heard whether or not they work well, but I would only believe it when I "see" it.

Yeah, the original ELP was the one that the creator would personally bring to your home to set up (or something to that effect) back then I think it was much more expensive. These new ones are still very expensive, but nothing a wealthy audio enthusiast or collector couldn't come up with... something like $10,000 I think. When compared to many high end super turntables, it's not outrageous (relatively speaking).

The problem with the ELP is that as someone mentioned earlier, the record has to be spotless because the lasers will pick up any stray particles as noise.

However... where the ELP shines like no other is when a very rare recording needs to be conserved, like for example, an old shellac 78. It doesn't matter if the record is in 10 pieces, just assemble the jigsaw on the turntable and the lasers will read it. So, historians, the library of congress, etc.

 

[watchnerd]

I did a little looking around to see if anyone has used laser technology to read the grooves on vinyl rather than some kind of direct contact stylus, and other than a couple of attempts in the 80's-90's, it looks like it hasn't ever gotten traction.
I now see DS audio with an optical cartridge, and wondered if anyone has looked into them.

https://www.ds-audio-w.biz/ds-e1-【new】/

So you can have it with an alu cantilever (why not boron or better at this price point), and a Shibata or MicroLine stylus, which is also obtainable for 1/4 of this price, from Ortofon and Audio Technica (who have been doing this for 50+ years).

But what problem is it solving??

As for the "low level hum" problem he mentions....Ken shouldn't need optical tech to solve that.

And if he means "noise", I'm finding a 23dB gain SUT + DSP RIAA to be dead silent, without using laser beams.

 

[watchnerd]

Also:

+8dB response peak at 12-14kHz.....WTF....

 

[BDWoody]

Also:

+8dB response peak at 12-14kHz.....WTF....

View attachment 33498

I guess my question was more about whether the concept seemed viable, or worthwhile... or if at this point there is no new information to be gained from the vinyl, and contact pickup should still be considered state of the art?

I have to say, I have been very pleasantly surprised at how low the noise floor is on my very budget (comparatively) Kenwood DD with the VM540ml...
I'm happy for now...

 

[watchnerd]

I guess my question was more about whether the concept seemed viable, or worthwhile... or if at this point there is no new information to be gained from the vinyl, and contact pickup should still be considered state of the art?

I have to say, I have been very pleasantly surprised at how low the noise floor is on my very budget (comparatively) Kenwood DD with the VM540ml...
I'm happy for now...

I guess it works (sound comes out)....but is it better that other existing options?

The FR was awful and his comments about noise floor are easy enough to solve without using lasers.

So I don't get the point of it.

As for evolution in styli / pick ups, I think the Audio Technica ART-1000 exhibits more genuine improvements in transducer design when it comes to improved sound:

 

[JP]

I have this one. Haven’t played with it yet.