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Opposite of ASR?
- Thread starter archerious
- Start date
I regularly recommend the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro/HIDIZS S8 over on Reddit. I get a lot of flack from people who obviously feel their manhood is threatened by this little dongle in comparison to their much more expensive, larger desktop amp/DACs. Some of them are actually enraged that I make this recommendation.
That being said, this is not a good reason to shun Reddit. ASR members really should help out at r/headphoneadvice, r/budgetaudiophile, and r/audiophile, as there are a lot of new people looking for help.
The best way to counter subjectivists is to help a new generation of audio enthusiasts become objectivists and advocates of audio science informed choices. Spending most of one's time on ASR and helping out the stray newbie that makes it here has much less of an impact than jumping into the fray at Reddit.
Blujackaal
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The /r/headphones community is a farce, It best tell them to avoid Reddit altogether. Since it full of SBAF trolls that lash out when challenged. many /r/headphones users raid other subs to cause trouble.
Yeah i had the same issue the ER3XR was my defult rec, Since it has same quality as the ER4 at $150. Always came back at -3 & lower, a long with another user by few Stax/LCD shills that act insecure & flame. As i care about there poorly tuned & made snake oil that only saving grace is being <0.1%.
Also what they recommend can be painfull which is two camps. One the ones that only ever say "Get the HD6XX" with overpriced amp/dac, then give you -8 if you say Beyer/AKG/Grado fit there tastes more. Then second ones that just kinda force the noob into them dumping over $500 on headphones with no clue if it good or not?, No point saying anything unless you want them to explode on how your trolling them???.
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I always think of reddit as a convoluted mess of subjective opinions with serious echo chamber issues. Only way to get hundreds to thousands of upvotes there is to "show and tell" KOSS KSC75 headphones (which I did and got 753 upvotes lol) and tell how they're the best since slice bread and you're guaranteed to rack up that much votes
Blujackaal
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I remember when Metal571 was that subs sweetheart, For 4+ months you couldn't not even hint you enjoyed a Grado headphone. You could get 100 points by making a fake review because turns out they never tried them & metal only based his views on a SR80e. Got fun seeing them making excuses for Audezee bad tunings or Hifimans very poor QC.
If I could do that, I wouldn't have two offsite storerooms and a house full of HiFi. They are the clever ones. Selling something to buy something new.
I sold tons of gear at one point over several years, then I got seller's remorse, even though it didn't make a dent in the collection.
I did a bit of research at the below website, John...
...and you are definitely a collector, not a "hoarder".
I disagree with that stereotype. r/headphones is a big mix of people, and it also tends to change from week to week as to who is participating. It's not like Head-Fi where the inmates run the asylum. Sure there are some subjectivists trolls who like to show up. But then they think I'm the mean objectivist. lol
That being said, r/headphones has a Shopping and Setup Help Desk thread which they create anew every few days. It's always listed as the top "hot" post when in that display mode for the subreddit. It's where people generally (and are supposed to) go for purchases recommendations for DACs, amps, and headphones, and technical assistance.
The subjectivist trolls don't really hang out there because it's not a place to engage in flaming debate. Good place for people on ASR to help out to make a difference. Lots of newbies ready to learn.
I see a lot of positive reactions in reddit about the work we do here. Many appreciate the data and use them as references. Of course, it is a huge forum so one can't speak for all of them. But it is a forum I participate in from time to time.
Robin L
Master Contributor
Inaudible Juju Introduction.
Blujackaal
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Would Hydrogenaudio count if stretch the term in the OP?. The TOS#8 is frankly really unfair & stupid, Since your not allowed to say anything. Now their lashing out at me because they openly ignore my problem samples to bash me with "Do you have any proof for that?".
Making the typical newbie mistake of dredging up an old thread...
For me, the pleasant antithesis is Audiogon, where poetry reigns supreme. But poets like many on Agon are generally good-natured and don't hate data, they just don't receive on those frequencies.
The malicious antithesis is Super Best Audio Friends, who have an anti-ASR thread going on 2,384 pages, it seems. My most recent review of a bit of that thread was the accusation that Amir is in the pocket of Topping, and shows them undue favoritism. My response to that: Just ignore Amir's pronouncements and look at the damn measurements.
I've gone in circles about Stereophile. Sure, poetry reigns supreme there at times. But their reviews include real measurements, and often JA tries to explain the subjective reactions of the reviewers based on his measurements. If praise isn't reflected in measurements, he says so and often downgrades a recommendation because of that.
Being the principled guy that I am (pause for the cessation of laughter), I have to say that subjective data is still data. It's just qualitative rather than quantitative. Sometimes, it is repeatable, sometimes it is not. Blind testing is the validation of subjective responses, of course. But I've bought stuff that was praised by someone like Sam Tellig and have never yet found that the stuff he liked was incompetent. Those guys curate the canon of "good stuff", and exclude lots of stuff for sketchy reasons, but the stuff they include is good stuff, even if it is ridiculously money-wasting.
And, as a musician, I do not discount the placebo effect. If someone believes that something sounds better, it probably will to them. If they express their opinions online--it's okay. Caveat emptor. You should hear the arguments among (mostly younger) tuba players about the audio effects of silver plating versus raw brass, for example. (Of course, there are none.) But the anti-ASR thread on SBAF is not pleasantly poetic and oblivious to physical realities, it's actively hostile, bellicose, and foul-mouthed about it.
Rick "who doesn't need measurements, however, to know when something sounds good enough" Denney
For me, the pleasant antithesis is Audiogon, where poetry reigns supreme. But poets like many on Agon are generally good-natured and don't hate data, they just don't receive on those frequencies.
The malicious antithesis is Super Best Audio Friends, who have an anti-ASR thread going on 2,384 pages, it seems. My most recent review of a bit of that thread was the accusation that Amir is in the pocket of Topping, and shows them undue favoritism. My response to that: Just ignore Amir's pronouncements and look at the damn measurements.
I've gone in circles about Stereophile. Sure, poetry reigns supreme there at times. But their reviews include real measurements, and often JA tries to explain the subjective reactions of the reviewers based on his measurements. If praise isn't reflected in measurements, he says so and often downgrades a recommendation because of that.
Being the principled guy that I am (pause for the cessation of laughter), I have to say that subjective data is still data. It's just qualitative rather than quantitative. Sometimes, it is repeatable, sometimes it is not. Blind testing is the validation of subjective responses, of course. But I've bought stuff that was praised by someone like Sam Tellig and have never yet found that the stuff he liked was incompetent. Those guys curate the canon of "good stuff", and exclude lots of stuff for sketchy reasons, but the stuff they include is good stuff, even if it is ridiculously money-wasting.
And, as a musician, I do not discount the placebo effect. If someone believes that something sounds better, it probably will to them. If they express their opinions online--it's okay. Caveat emptor. You should hear the arguments among (mostly younger) tuba players about the audio effects of silver plating versus raw brass, for example. (Of course, there are none.) But the anti-ASR thread on SBAF is not pleasantly poetic and oblivious to physical realities, it's actively hostile, bellicose, and foul-mouthed about it.
Rick "who doesn't need measurements, however, to know when something sounds good enough" Denney
Mostly. A couple of users there are snotty and ridiculous - I’ll single out millercarbon, Teo Audio, and the guy who tweaks your system with a phone call (forgot his name, he seems to have moved on). And then there are a few who just can’t stop riding their own hobbyhorse, like class D amps (awesome/suck) or the only method for cable elevation, etc. There are a few of those here, but at least the prevalent attitude forces them to do something other than bloviate about magic and how everyone else is deaf or has a bad system. And the forum moderator is seriously biased.
All in all, I’ve kinda given up on Audiogon. After your post I popped over to it and picked up a random thread on “what does ‘cold’ mean?”. Yup, not much of interest going on over there.
While I think ASR isn't perfect either (nothing is) and there is room for improvement there are so many horrible sites and youtube channels out there I don't know where to start actually. One of the worst has to be headfonia. My brain hurts when I'm reading there (mostly stopped visiting, not wanting to risk my mental health). SBAF is one weird schizophrenic place with many unfriendly elitist people. On the one hand they do measurements and technical analysis on the other hand it is often mixed up with all kinds of irrational subjectivism. Though there is some occasional usefull stuff there.
That's a fact and what turned me away from that site. Even using their tech section I was contacted and told to quit going on about the faked Audioquest HDMI cable video. Bye Bye Head Fi.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Marvin (SBAFs equivalent of Amir) just bought an APx555.
To quote the good man:
The APx555 was meant for research, discovery, science, engineering. Not SINAD bullshit. It's time to take back the word science.
and
I'd rather fight on the "who is the better measurement guru" front. I know certain other folks with APx555s are lazy or have resorted to sloppy "I don't give a F and I won't bother to investigate" methodologies. Bring it on I say!
That's spending a lot of money to prove @amirm 'wrong' and prove:
Are there certain behaviors which are common to ESS chip DACs, AKM DACs? Certain topologies? Certain patterns which explain what we hear.
Also would be fun to do stuff like set the record straight on potentiometers... maybe frame them in proper visualizations so if channel balance is 0.5db off, it's not graphed like it was the end of the world.
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I thought the crowd at Audiogon were elitist (only the most expensive is any good), ignorant of audio science, and pretty agressive. In the end, the business model is audiophilia nervosa leading to a merry go round of second hand gear sales.
What a logic!
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