RexrothPigeon
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without controlled testing, this is no more than "trust me bro"
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Opamp fakes vs real vs audiophile
- Thread starter 0bs3rv3r
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- Thread Starter
- #82
Not completely. There has been research into the pleasing effects of added harmonics - especially H2. Arguably not "Hifi" anymore, but nice to listen to.
RexrothPigeon
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I didn't say that there hasn't been any controlled testing--I have no idea. But you haven't provided any, so your assertions haven't yet risen above the trust me bro level.
MAB
Major Contributor
Has there ever been evidence of someone actually being able to discern one Op Amp vs. another when both are used in an appropriate circuit?I am not sure of the motivation for saying something like this. I accept that many disparage audiophile nonsense, but the statement still has something to say, which is literally that there is an audiophile market for them - and that ISN'T to say they are any better, or maybe even as good as, a 5532
Alternately, has anybody ever been able to hear distortion 90dB down from the fundamental?
Do you think you can hear the difference between these two?
Does Op-amp Rolling Work?
The Chinese are said to be very skilled people, you know?
www.audiosciencereview.com
Or these two:
Sparkos SS3602 Opamp Rolling In Fosi P4
Beginning to? It has for several days weeks already! :facepalm: I have a very high tolerance for behaviour that looks trollish, but might just be ignorance. That tolerance - in this case - is pretty much consumed.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Or these:
Sparkos SS3602 Opamp Rolling In Fosi P4
1% is four orders of magnitude, even less audible. You also need to take the Klippel distortion test to inform yourself how much distortion is actually audible. You can't pass 80dB even with a pure tone. If you can, please post your results. Someone pointed this out to you earlier when you...
www.audiosciencereview.com
If you believe you can, perhaps take the Klippel listening test to see what level of distortion you can actually hear.
Or get Pkane's DISTORT software and make yourself aware of human threshold.
Or many of the other tools that allow you to calibrate how much of various types of distortion we can actually hear.
Then ponder again if you are actually hearing distortion differences, let alone second HD, when comparing these Op Amps. Even the OPA2604 and OPA228 aren't audibly different.
The "Audiophile" hears all of these sighted differences despite the fact that the actual differences are so far below human perception. The "Audiophile market" that trades in perceived OpAmp differences is based on illusion.
Claims that marketing has successfully duped the customer into buying things of no value is indeed nothing audible. If you really want to disparage "audiophile nonsense", measure, find what the actual differences are, and put them in context of the thresholds of human hearing.
J.M. Noble
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Thanks for the links. I got kind of fatigued with Tracy Chapman clips in the Klippel test but still managed to hit -36dB while using Airpods. Not bad considering I have some tinnitus and a minor suckout (as of my last audiology report some time ago) in the 8k range at age late-fifty-mumble.
It will be interesting to repeat the test with HD600s. I might hear what seem to be compression artifacts in the "undistorted" signal better, too. Something besides the mono mixdown seems off.
There is an audiophool market for cable lifters, k$ cables, cd markers etc etc . So, so what.
He meant your insistance that opamps have a sound. They dont. This is audiophool BS. The levels of distortion with decent OAs in a proper circuit are inaudible. You give no proof they sound different there is no proof.
MAB
Major Contributor
The tests are fatiguing in general. Especially with music that is poor for detecting distortion. Tracy Chapman, as discussed in research, is one of the better artists for discriminating artifacts and differences.
Pure tones are even more discriminatory but there appears to be many cheaters who use a measurement on those tests.
BeeKay
Major Contributor
About time for Hitchens‘s Razor
Sokel
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I f you mean my charts, the fake OPA 2134 is textbook harsh/strident and as uncontrolled it can be with the forest of harmonics you see there.
It's the same pattern you would see at a clipped signal, and yes, people with small amps clip all the time and don't know it but the difference is that this happens for ms, not a constant like these knock-offs.
The last charts I posted are IMD measurements with only two tones and the result is an absolute mess, far, FAR away from a controlled high H2, H3 harmonics or nice d2L, d2H and clean from there on.
I can test them with music or WN, PN, etc at an FSAF measurement but it just don't worth it, you can tell the mess already.
We're not talking about "flavors" here, this thread is not about "differences" in sound.
We're talking about real vs fake with the later been potentially hazardous for the rest f the gear.
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JSmith
Master Contributor
BeeKay
Major Contributor
Maybe it’s worth having a whole new AliExpress HiFi forum section.
For a start with fake Accuphase amps and, for those wanting to to risk less change, fake op-amps?
A happy new counterfeit world we have here.
For a start with fake Accuphase amps and, for those wanting to to risk less change, fake op-amps?
A happy new counterfeit world we have here.
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Does that work like a grammatical double negative?
EDIT:
PS "No, it doesn't" is a perfectly, logically acceptable reply.
- Thread Starter
- #95
Doesn't that say it all really?
JSmith
Not quite. I connected one of these preamps into a system this morning, and it works well. Can't help thinking these are excess stock that is being dumped at a cheap price.
Roland68
Major Contributor
Why shouldn't it work? Do you think you'd hear a difference if they were rebranded, cheap NE5532 or TL072?
- Thread Starter
- #97
Oh I agree. In fact I said the same thing. Actually was the point of this discussion. Why would we care when they are so cheap? We get a device that does the job so well we can't tell the difference, and it is super cheap.
Some time ago I had a line driver with a supposedly great op-amp, but its electrolytic capacitors were incorrectly polarized. In this case the production quantity is apparently quite large, and there are different variants — the 828 is hardly suitable for microphones. But I also wonder what anyone would gain from a counterfeit that sells for 1–3 bucks.
- Thread Starter
- #99
A video opamp is not the immediate choice for audio, for sure. I have been listening to a preamp board (not the one picture above, but with AD828s plugged in in place of 5532s (using adapter boards). They actually sound great and do a fine job. (and note, that's not a claim about opamp rolling and that they sound better or worse)
However, because there are so many being sold in various forms, I think they have come across a huge quantity of surplus devices for practically nothing, and decided to use and sell them.
Roland68
Major Contributor
In China, cheap, outdated op-amps are manufactured for well under 20 cents, maybe even under 10. Marking or laser engraving each costs only a few cents.
Start doing the math. Trading in original components isn't that lucrative.
And we're not just talking about a few hundred or thousand pieces.
For TI and Onsemi NE5532, I pay around 50 cents for 10 pieces, and even under 25 cents for larger quantities from the official distributor.
Where do you think the profit margin is higher?
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