Opamp fakes vs real vs audiophile

[Roland68]

But one of the ways they fake expensive opamps is to use a cheaper (although otherwise good) opamp. So, I think many fakes would work well and never be discovered. Sure, there might be some fakes that are this bad, but I actualy haven't found one yet myself. So, is it really "quite likely" these days?

As an aside, I really have trouble believing discrete opamps are automatically better than chip opamps. I would bet people selling 5532 chips hidden inside an audiophile opamp, discrete or otherwise, would easily get a free pass.

Again, on this subject, these boards, in many variations, seem to be everywhere, cheap, at the moment. Would the manufacturer have made sure they were soldering real chips to their boards? Maybe. Are they boards that failed to meet specs, and so are being sold cheap? Also maybe.

View attachment 492504

Counterfeit OPAmps have been around for 35 years. You just have to use your brain. If an OPAmp costs less individually or in small quantities than the industry price for thousands, then you have a 99.9% chance of getting a counterfeit.
If such an OPAmp is being sold on certain platforms for half the price, or even a tenth, then you can assume you've thrown your money away.
Addendum:
This does not mean, of course, that the more expensive OPAmps offered on these platforms are originals and not fakes; the risk of counterfeiting is still very high.

In my 35 years of experience, it's not worth buying from dubious sources. Every manufacturer specifies which distributor offers their parts and can also trace the supply chain.
Of course, these counterfeits can be measured, but depending on the OPAmp, this is a very time-consuming process. We placed two test orders of 10 units each of extremely cheaply offered OPAmps (Muse, OPA627, AD797, etc.), and every single one was counterfeit.

An exception to this are used op-amps, which are often installed on adapter boards. However, not all sellers specify that these are recycled op-amps, and even then, counterfeit versions are often used.

The above also applies, of course, to all assembled boards that are sold on certain platforms for significantly less than the original op-amps.

 

[olds1959special]

I bought some LM4562NA’s for about $10 for 4 from Amazon. They sound fine. I assume they are genuine. It’s a Chinese brand.

 

[Roland68]

I bought some LM4562NA’s for about $10 for 4 from Amazon. They sound fine. I assume they are genuine. It’s a Chinese brand.

At that price, you can assume it's a fake unless it's from a reputable dealer who can trace their supply chain.
You won't notice any difference in sound; you'd have to measure it.

It could also be used components, but that's very unlikely with this type of OPAmp.

 

[RKV1]

Counterfeits are everywhere especially in the NOS or used IC markets. If there's a demand for a particular part number there will be counterfeits. Counterfeits are easy to spot when repairing older distortion analzers (e.g. ST1701). Residues will be all over the place. Just try finding a genuine Signetics NE5534AN, good luck.

 

[Cbdb2]

A genuine AD828 have very good cable drive capability. So it should drive a hf square wave through a long cable with not to much overshoot. If you have access to a scope or ADC

Because it was designed to drive multiple video cables. But for audio even the old NE5534 has better noise (3.5 vs 10 nV/root hz) and distortion (.003% vs.013%).

Makes me wonder if any of these manufacturers have read this: https://ia803406.us.archive.org/23/...ications Handbook - Analog Devices (2005).pdf

 

[mhardy6647]

In my 35 years of experience, it's not worth buying from dubious sources. Every manufacturer specifies which distributor offers their parts and can also trace the supply chain.

Yup. There's (almost always) a difference between price and value.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

I bought some LM4562NA’s for about $10 for 4 from Amazon. They sound fine. I assume they are genuine. It’s a Chinese brand.

At that price, you can assume it's a fake unless it's from a reputable dealer who can trace their supply chain.
You won't notice any difference in sound; you'd have to measure it.

Because it was designed to drive multiple video cables. But for audio even the old NE5534 has better noise (3.5 vs 10 nV/root hz) and distortion (.003% vs.013%).

These comments from above would hint that we don't, in fact, really need extra special opamps in some of our equipment. In fact, some, that are cheap, worse specs, and fake, are often reported as sounding great, or even better sounding.

I am not just speaking about third hand experience, I have some of these fake opamps, and I cannot deny that they sound very fine in the preamps I have tried.

I see a relationship to people liking valve (tube) amps. I know ASR is about science and measurements (that's why I come here) but there really are times when preferences are for something that measures worse.

 

[J.M. Noble]

With horrible inevitability, the very popularity and excellent technical performance of the 5532 has led to it being criticised by Subjectivists who have contrived to convince themselves that they can tell opamps apart by listening to music played through them. This always makes me laugh because there is probably no music on the planet that has not passed through a hundred or more 5532s on its way to the consumer.

Self, Douglas. Small Signal Audio Design (p. 159).

 

[0bs3rv3r]

The thing with video opsmps is that they are very fast, so more skill in cirquit design is required. Or the circuit easily gets unstable.

Perhaps it's just as well they are fakes then as they are being plugged into all sorts of cheap boards. Then again, modern PCBs and surface mount tech, are resulting in very good, quiet and maybe, stable circuits being available on the cheap markets.

 

[Chrispy]

Just thinking today, while looking at Asian markets selling opamps and opamp based preamp boards, about the prevalence of fakes, or likely fakes, in the market. Then I recall the various tests that show opamp rolling might not make much difference.

So, does it matter that my OPA2134 might be a 5532, or something obscure? My experience is that these preamp boards almost invariably work, and work quite well. I have also never bought an opamp that didn't work, although, yes, there are reports of that happening. Lately you can buy nearly anything, even discrete opamps, video opamps (like AD828), etc etc being sold as audiophile opamps.

But, if the tests are right, there is not enough difference to really matter, and if you like what you hear, so does it matter if the 2134 is a 5532 or a TL072?

read the first page but generally I think it's just marketing a product to suckers with a high probability of success

 

[Cbdb2]

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ad828.pdf AD828 is from 2002 and AD has moved on.
The thing with video opsmps is that they are very fast, so more skill in cirquit design is required. Or the circuit easily gets unstable.
A slow fake one is much easier to use

But they dont need the low noise and distortion audio OAs need which also requires skill, but the real skill is knowing which trade offs (always are) are necessary and how to achieve them. Like trading noise and distortion for speed if your designing a video OA or vice versa for an audio OA.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

But they dont need the low noise and distortion audio OAs need which also requires skill, but the real skill is knowing which trade offs (always are) are necessary and how to achieve them. Like trading noise and distortion for speed if your designing a video OA or vice versa for an audio OA.

But then instrumentation amplifier designs ( there are some in a pdf someone referenced above using the AD828) also need high quality, not just high bandwidth.

 

[Deleted member 88295]

I got some opa2211. Yes I know chance they are fake is big (buck a piece), still wanted to try and if they don't work, free return.

 

[NotInYourHead]

Just thinking today, while looking at Asian markets selling opamps and opamp based preamp boards, about the prevalence of fakes, or likely fakes, in the market. Then I recall the various tests that show opamp rolling might not make much difference.

So, does it matter that my OPA2134 might be a 5532, or something obscure? My experience is that these preamp boards almost invariably work, and work quite well. I have also never bought an opamp that didn't work, although, yes, there are reports of that happening. Lately you can buy nearly anything, even discrete opamps, video opamps (like AD828), etc etc being sold as audiophile opamps.

But, if the tests are right, there is not enough difference to really matter, and if you like what you hear, so does it matter if the 2134 is a 5532 or a TL072?

You'll be lucky if you get an actual NE5532. Lots of fakes I've seen are based on ancient opamps that are far inferior to the 5532 or not even audio opamps. Whatever has 8 legs is qualifed for "hi fever operational amplifer better than NE5532 OPA2064"

 

[0bs3rv3r]

You'll be lucky if you get an actual NE5532. Lots of fakes I've seen are based on ancient opamps that are far inferior to the 5532 or not even audio opamps. Whatever has 8 legs is qualifed for "hi fever operational amplifer better than NE5532 OPA2064"

Where are they getting these "ancient" chips? Surely they are not still making them.

Now I am curious. I wonder, what is the oldest dual opamp they could be using?

​

 

[Roland68]

You'll be lucky if you get an actual NE5532. Lots of fakes I've seen are based on ancient opamps that are far inferior to the 5532 or not even audio opamps. Whatever has 8 legs is qualifed for "hi fever operational amplifer better than NE5532 OPA2064"

Genuine NE5532 op-amps from TI and Onsemi are available for €0.26-€0.60 each from official dealers and distributors, and 100 pieces for as little as €20.
Why would anyone buy counterfeit products?

 

[NotInYourHead]

Where are they getting these "ancient" chips? Surely they are not still making them.

Now I am curious. I wonder, what is the oldest dual opamp they could be using?

I have no clue either. But China is a giant hub of electronic manufacturing and recycling, it's possible they harvest parts from broken down equipment in bulk, give them a new identity and a new Aliexpress listing

As for "ancient", I've seen counterfeited NE5532 made from LM358 and TL072.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Genuine NE5532 op-amps from TI and Onsemi are available for €0.26-€0.60 each from official dealers and distributors, and 100 pieces for as little as €20.
Why would anyone buy counterfeit products?

I woud not. But, many opamps cost a lot more than that, and that's why there is this huge market out there. Of course, it is for those who believe that you can hear a difference between a modern opamp and an old 5532.

I have no clue either. But China is a giant hub of electronic manufacturing and recycling, it's possible they harvest parts from broken down equipment in bulk, give them a new identity and a new Aliexpress listing

As for "ancient", I've seen counterfeited NE5532 made from LM358 and TL072.

Well that's not too bad I have used TL072 and they do a good job.

 

[0bs3rv3r]

Genuine NE5532 op-amps from TI and Onsemi are available for €0.26-€0.60 each from official dealers and distributors,

You'll be lucky if you get an actual NE5532.

Maybe the above, is why you actually might be getting 5532s these days. A very cheap source for faking more expensive opamps. Who knows how cheap even the real ones are in China?

 

[NotInYourHead]

Genuine NE5532 op-amps from TI and Onsemi are available for €0.26-€0.60 each from official dealers and distributors, and 100 pieces for as little as €20.
Why would anyone buy counterfeit products?

It matters more with exotic opamps. MUSES for example. Imagine selling TL072s for $30-40 a pop. That's daylight Fort Knox robbery