Op Amp Rolling

[Mnyb]

Serious companies warns about changing any component (specially op-amps) and it usually voids warranty (as it should),I wrote about it before in another thread.
The only thing needed is a big sticker on the device that makes it immediately visible,not only written in the fine print of the manuals.

Yes you must understand the circuit just as good as the original designer and then you probably realise its fine as it is , unless the design is very budget constrained and it might be some other op that also fit the design , but how many are a drop in replacement ?

I get the vibe that competence in the matter would make you avoid OP amp rolling except for some rare case .

So the whole idea resides on marks just at the rigth peak on the dunning kruger curve

Re that guy making a home page ”listening ” to OP’s in Cmoy application. Its just the right kind of disinformation that would trigger tinkerers to do this on scale .

You can then misinterpret the disinformation even more if you’re a tinkerer . And translate those findings ( bad and misinformed as they are ) to other applications of the same OP amp where they migth perform very different, god or bad who knows. The cargo cult theme is thinking they have som character that penetrates all applications that cant be measured but heard by special people .

I thank the EE’s in this tread for giving better information about it and ask the right questions .

 

[solderdude]

12 years ago I tested some op-amps I had lying around in a C'Moy (including rail splitter)

Portable op-amp headphone amplifier test

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

 

[BDWoody]

Op-amps affect the sound. If you can’t hear the difference, have you gotten a hearing test lately? Maybe you are just deaf? I have built a headphone amp and experimented with different op amps and could clearly hear differences. Measurements can confirm what may already be heard.

Uh huh...

 

[quocheiser]

It's called a placebo.

The placebo effect is real though isn't it?
Partially playing devil's avocado here...
This is the only acoustics related placebo study I could find online: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360132322008770

 

[Great Sun Jester]

The placebo effect is real though isn't it?
Partially playing devil's avocado here...
This is the only acoustics related placebo study I could find online: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360132322008770

Seeing is believing.

 

[olieb]

You can then misinterpret the disinformation even more if you’re a tinkerer . And translate those findings ( bad and misinformed as they are ) to other applications of the same OP amp where they migth perform very different, god or bad who knows. The cargo cult theme is thinking they have som character that penetrates all applications that cant be measured but heard by special people .

Yes, there is nothing wrong with being a tinkerer, building candy-box amps and modifying your gear all you want. But to come here and evangelize about the truth of audibility and call others "deaf" is way over the top.

Isn't it more "animism" than "cargo cult", if you have the idea that things have a character and a soul?
And yes, these animists experience differences and qualities which are revealed only to the initiated, no profane measurement can capture those and somehow the expensive things have the more noble souls most of the time .

It's hard for those initiated to accept that most of the differences go away the very moment nobody tells them which of the things is in play. But there is always a way around the nasty feeling of acceptance.

 

[quocheiser]

FWIW, and risking entering the snake's (oil) den, I much prefer the sound of my system with my Fosi ZA3 with OPA1612s than with the stock NE5532s.
I was highly skeptical that there would be a discernible difference as I've been reading ASR (almost religiously) and other forums for years, and to me it seemed the majority of the consensus was that there shouldn't/wouldn't be a change, especially a 'positive' one. Add to that the minefield of op amps available and the myriad of suggestions from online 'audiophiles' maybe it's better to just do nothing and be content simply enjoying the music.
Then I listened to this

and whether or not the effect of placebo/mental gymnastics was involved, I became convinced to at least try an op amp roll for fun.
No way jose was I going to spend close to the price of the amp on an op amp though, so I contented myself with the ~8eur a piece op amps from TI.
The frequency response of my system changed significantly and I had to re-EQ my system afterwards (changing 9 bands out of my available 31 by up to +/-3db per band).
I'd say if you like to tinker (even unnecessarily) and are ready to get high off your own Kool-Aid give it a go lol.
But don't expect anyone (especially on ASR) to believe or care and to take your own findings with a hefty pinch of salt unless you have some data to back yourself up.

 

[SIY]

The frequency response of my system changed significantly

Could you please post the measurements? That seems remarkable.

 

[quocheiser]

Could you please post the measurements? That seems remarkable.

Yeah I was a bit flabbergasted to say the least.
I'm still shaking my head as it doesn't make any goddamn sense.
Oh and when I say "I had to re-EQ" it was also because the system sounded so different, that previously unpleasant and 'mushy' frequencies in the bass region (25-125hz) seemed to tighten up a great deal, and so I didn't have to attenuate them as much.
Conversely I had to attenuate the upper treble (16-20k) by about -1 dB each band.
I've been planning on measuring with a sound test recording for Youtube, to contribute something back to the interwebs and greater 'audiophile' community.
I already have a Sonarworks calibrated mic, just waiting on the new Fosi V3 Monos to arrive so that I can easily do a op amp roll v stock comparison.
Will need to ask the ASR community best practice for the measurements with the limited gear I will have available.
I'm hoping that something comes up in those measurements so that I don't think I've gone batshit crazy lol.
But I won't be surprised if nothing shows up.

 

[olieb]

Could you please post the measurements? That seems remarkable.

You didn't really think @quocheiser already had measurements, did you? That was an EQ to compensate for "veils lifted".

@quocheiser:
IF there were a significant difference that would be a strong hint for bad things (like oscillations) going on.

 

[beefkabob]

The placebo effect is real though isn't it?
Partially playing devil's avocado here...
This is the only acoustics related placebo study I could find online: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360132322008770

That's not devil's advocate. That's snake oil advocate.

 

[quocheiser]

You didn't really think @quocheiser already had measurements, did you? That was an EQ to compensate for "veils lifted".

@quocheiser:
IF there were a significant difference that would be a strong hint for bad things (like oscillations) going on.

Definitely could be, not that I know what that would sound like.
Feel free to go CSI Miami at it once I actually have some measurements to share.
I'd love to know what is going on whether it makes me a veil lifting clown or not.

 

[quocheiser]

That's not devil's advocate. That's snake oil advocate.

Snake Oil Avocado.
Delicious but poisonous.

 

[SIY]

But I won't be surprised if nothing shows up.

Nor will I.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is massively probably that this is a brain-illusion rather than an actual sonic change. Which means you have a normal human brain. What will nail this down is a basic electrical (not acoustical!) measurement.

 

[Down South]

Yes, there is nothing wrong with being a tinkerer, building candy-box amps and modifying your gear all you want. But to come here and evangelize about the truth of audibility and call others "deaf" is way over the top.

Isn't it more "animism" than "cargo cult", if you have the idea that things have a character and a soul?
And yes, these animists experience differences and qualities which are revealed only to the initiated, no profane measurement can capture those and somehow the expensive things have the more noble souls most of the time .

It's hard for those initiated to accept that most of the differences go away the very moment nobody tells them which of the things is in play. But there is always a way around the nasty feeling of acceptance.

Bad choice by you to use animism to promote your argument.
Animists say that 'everything that exists has energy' they were centuries ahead of particle physicists and completely correct. Everything that exists is a manifestation of energy - if it doesn't manifest energy it is a figment of your imagination or you are simply b/shitting.

 

[quocheiser]

Nor will I.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it is massively probably that this is a brain-illusion rather than an actual sonic change. Which means you have a normal human brain. What will nail this down is a basic electrical (not acoustical!) measurement.

I knowingly put myself up for the slaughter so all good!
Even if I did take it the wrong way, I'd get over it .
Confirming that I am a normal human would be comforting in many ways haha.

What would I need to make an electrical measurement?
I was planning on just measuring the FR response from the speaker.
I just realized that I could already do such a measurement from my ZA3 by just reinstalling just one (1) of the original NE5532 op amps.
I'd run the audio signal in mono, set the mic up on one speaker, and then I'd just have to swap the L/R channels for each recording.
This way the mic and speaker can stay in the exact same spot.

 

[SIY]

I was planning on just measuring the FR response from the speaker.

That's a much less repeatable and certain way; an electrical measurement of an electronic device is much more certain, repeatable, and less error-prone. Reliable acoustic measurements are very difficult, electrical measurements are easy.

If you have another ADC, just measure/record the output of the DAC with the two different opamps. I'd use @pkane 's Delta Wave software, or if you're feeling adventurous, MultiTone.

 

[quocheiser]

That's a much less repeatable and certain way; an electrical measurement of an electronic device is much more certain, repeatable, and less error-prone. Reliable acoustic measurements are very difficult, electrical measurements are easy.

If you have another ADC, just measure/record the output of the DAC with the two different opamps. I'd use @pkane 's Delta Wave software, or if you're feeling adventurous, MultiTone.

Mate, you're a real help!
I actually do have access to an ADC with unfortunately 1-channel of input (Audient iD4 mk1).
Even with the one input, this would actually be easier than an acoustic measurement.
I'll give both DeltaWave and MultiTone a try as I'm always feeling adventurous .

 

[SIY]

I'll give both DeltaWave and MultiTone a try as I'm always feeling adventurous

They're remarkable, incredibly useful- and free. If there's ever an Audio Hall of Fame, Paul needs to be in it.

Audient iD4 mk1

The issue with that is that it doesn't seem to have a line level input. Interfaces that do have line-level are very common (I use Focusrite and Behringer for fast and easy measurement) so maybe you could borrow one?

 

[quocheiser]

They're remarkable, incredibly useful- and free. If there's ever an Audio Hall of Fame, Paul needs to be in it.

The issue with that is that it doesn't seem to have a line level input. Interfaces that do have line-level are very common (I use Focusrite and Behringer for fast and easy measurement) so maybe you could borrow one?

I'm very glad to have discovered that page with all that software on it.
I can already see how much fun I'm gonna have with that harmonics VST lol.

That Audient (it's the older model from 4-5 years back) has 1-line level input.
Here is a picture of said input:

Can't wait to nerd out with DeltaWave and Multitone.
Thanks @pkane for making such software available for us poor audio techs.