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Op-amp Rolling Using Sparkos on Fosi V3 Mono

Rate this opamp rolling study:

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    Votes: 12 6.3%
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Beautiful Pictures from the inside also here from 9:00 min on ;) :

Definitely some nice shots of the interior of the Amps in there. I personally love these amps and use them several hours per day, sometimes all day. I have basically not been using my headphones these days and instead using my RP-8000F Gen II's with these Amps and a SMSL SU-8S DAC on my main TV. I just play the speakers at 35-45% volume and that is enough to fill a good portion of my house!
 
Sure. The main question is if you want to hear the difference in linear transfer function or not. If not, then you may EQ. But in case you are interested in linear transfer differences as well, then you must not equalize them. And if they exist, you hear them and it is the fact, you cannot deny it. BTW, linear differences are much more audible than the nonlinear ones, in fact linear differences are key to perceived differences.
The "problem" is, that the brain is manipulating everything, for example what you hear, and delivers it corresponding to individual preferences and notions. You are not even sure, it ever existed, even if you believe that you are "hearing" it. It is a misconception per se, to believe, that anything you "hear" is really existing as a singular entity, which can be trusted. But this is "old news" and is known for several tens of years already...
 
No, I did not read through all 18 pages, but are there measurements for 2 Sparkos op amps, in the two positions?
 
No, I did not read through all 18 pages, but are there measurements for 2 Sparkos op amps, in the two positions?
What needs to be realized is that both the NE5532 and Sparkos op-amps perform 'better' than the output stage that follows the op-amps (namely the TPA3255).
That TPA3255 determines the amp's performance (the so-called bottle neck) so it really does not matter for the actual output signal waveform/fidelity which of the op-amps is in there.

Where it does matter is
A: the price of the amp went up considerably meaning the sound quality improves as you paid more.
B: the 'knowledge' that something 'discrete' with a wonderful audiophile sound and it's own 'sound character' is in there instead of a cheap run of the mill op-amp (boo... sounds bad).

So op-amp rolling works because of A and B despite the actual output signal NOT changing even the slightest.
It does not work from any technical viewpoint/measurement.
Pick your poison.
 
Ooops ... opamp rollers are gonna be up-in-arms :)
Their arguments are mostly "I can hear the difference". Nobody questions, what they really "hear", but unfortunately their brain might mess with what they really hear. Listening by using our hearing is no scientific measurements, because our brain messes with everything they "hear"; it was originally made for a completely different purpose: "survival".
It follows "glues, believes and illusions" done by their brain to predict the outcome without really knowing at that time to make that possible. Thus it might err in every aspect...
 
Their arguments are mostly "I can hear the difference". Nobody questions, what they really "hear", but unfortunately their brain might mess with what they really hear. Listening by using our hearing is no scientific measurements, because our brain messes with everything they "hear"; it was originally made for a completely different purpose: "survival".
It follows "glues, believes and illusions" done by their brain to predict the outcome without really knowing at that time to make that possible. Thus it might err in every aspect...
Correct, but it doesn’t matter: they can truly “hear” the differences. It is just that, in that context, “hearing” is entirely subjective. That how & why op-amp rolling works.
 
Im using Sparkos on Fosi V3 Stereo and it made all the diff.
i mean only the fact it’s class A means different sound.
 
I changed and tried several op-amp combinations on my za3/zd3 stack last winter. I could swear I hear the difference. Not necessarily better sound but different whatsoever.

Then, during the summer, I didn't have that much time for music listening. After a while, somewhere about a month ago, I started fiddling with my setup again. But this time, there was absolutely no difference in sound, no matter which combo I applied.

Therfore I realised that I can't even trust my own ears and let alone someone else's.

List of my YT channel subscriptions got a bit shorter. Then I carefully watched all Amir's videos and a few of Erin's. I ordered a measuring microphone.

So, it might sound boring, but IMO if you want actual sound improvements, then study the data, measure, address speaker positioning, adjust EQs...

And don't forget to enjoy the music.
 
I just had a Sparkos SS3602 opamp go bad in my Fosi ZA3. I had put in three, one for each channel and one for the XLR input circuit. Go ahead, make fun of me! I bought them before the ASR review. After a year or so of being turned on a few hours a day and playing at low desktop volumes, the left channel started randomly popping and crackling with enough volume that I was worried about it damaging the speaker, plus that channel was producing audible hissing and humming. It was doing it even without a signal, and regardless of volume position, and I confirmed it wasn't my source by swapping in a different amp. I swapped around the opamps, removing the suspect left Sparkos, moving the XLR Sparkos to the left channel and replacing the XLR with the stock opamp. All problems gone. So in additon to any sonic benefits being dubious, they aren't built for the ages, either. I now see they do not have any kind of warranty for the opamps (which is understandable, given the chances of user error in installation). So another reason to buyer beware, I suppose, even if you still believe they make a sonic difference. And obviously any product is going to have a bad apple, but since I haven't seen anyone else run into this issue, I thought I'd add my experience to the hivemind.
 
Using v3 monos with 48v10a stoke op amp sound too good too my ear sounds better than 3E Audio a5 and A7 . When i swap opa 1656 in v3 xlr position 2 and position 3 ne5532 and 3e Audio ne5532 the 3e sounds better to my setup but with all stoke V3 sounds way better , are anyone upgrade with sparkos ss3602 in position 2 in fosi v3 mono, how much improvement in sound quality?

Just keep the shining everywhere you go! :facepalm:
 
Ooops ... opamp rollers are gonna be up-in-arms :)
Well
This is a study of measured differences if one swaps up the TI NE5532p dual IC op-amp in a Fosi V3 Mono amplifier with a "discrete" opamp from Sparkos. It is a test requested in the youtube comments of my video test of the same using Douk A5 and Sonic Imagery op-amp. The Sparkos SS3602 retails for US $79.80 but I found a discount coupon that brought the cost down to $74.33 with shipping included.
View attachment 441085

Per Fosi documentation, there are three op-amps. The one at the bottom is only for unbalanced/balanced conversion. That leaves two op-amps to swap. Company says if you have only one, to change the #2, middle right to impact the tonality. So that is what I did as you see in the above picture. For clarity, this is a mono amplifier so the two ICs are dedicated to the same channel.

The Fosi V3 Mono with its balanced input was quite stable in operation, allowing me to borrow some of my review measurements. I did however repeat a couple as well (which confirmed the same).

In this second assessment of opamp rolling, I tried to address some of the criticism of the last test as you see below. Hopefully it completes a picture as this is the forth or fifth such testing.

Sparkos SS3306 Opamp and Fosi V3 Measurements
For my first test, I ran a full power sweep with the stock NE5532p and then with SS306. This allows us to see the noise+distortion at all power levels, accomplishing a number of things at once:
View attachment 441086
As we see, the results (subject to run to run variation) is essentially identical. Performance is most likely dominated by the class D output stage, not the input buffer/gain stage.

Question was asked about frequency response, thinking that explains some of the perception of tonality difference in uncontrolled, subjective evaluations. Here is that:
View attachment 441088

Again, it is the output class D amplifier IC which generates this response, not the front-end op-amps. The latter likely has much flatter and wider response. With identical frequency response, no tonality difference can be explained or justified.

A common retort was running only "static" tests. Never mind that a sine wave is not a static signal but time varying by a mathematical formula. Regular readers of ASR know that we have a good stand in, in the form of 32-tone test signal. Most have seen those 32 spikes in frequency domain but not that many know what it looks like in time domain: the thing that the amplifier "sees:"

View attachment 441089

Let's agree that this is a highly complex signal. Not only that, it has ton more energy in higher frequencies than real music, with full amplitude tones going to 20 kHz. Any worry about "slew rate" then would be tested here. Let's overlay the stock 5532 opamp and Sparkos Labs SS3602:
View attachment 441090
The response is again, identical. Yes, there are individual noise/distortion spikes that are a hair different but they won't amount to anything and certainly won't explain any perceived audio difference.

Another question was that of ultrasonics and worries of oscillations. My audio analyzer has a bandwidth of 1 MHz so I tested that far:

View attachment 441091
I forgot to take out my high-resolution AES-17 filter so the energy is brought down gradually from 40 kHz on. Since both measurements are impacted the same way, we can still compare. Once more, we see no meaningful difference.

Discussion and Conclusions
All of this came about because I predicted and promised that op-amp swapping won't make a difference when I tested the Douk A5 amplifier. How did I know that? For the following reasons:

1. The op-amp stage uses a ton of feedback. Since they have an easy time versus the amplifier output stage, it is trivial to get this pre-amp portion to far exceed the performance that is needed in terms of noise, distortion and bandwidth.

2. Some replacement op-amps may be designed as to produce better performance. But that requires circuit modification (e.g. to change level of feedback). Without it, you won't see that impact.

3. Turns out the NE5532p, despite its age, is an excellent opamp for audio applications. While there are thousand of opamps out there, they are solving different problems than the plain application we have.

As to outcomes of different sound people hear in swapping op-amps, basic science of controlled testing says a) these tests have to be fully controlled (blind, level matched) and b) run instantaneously. You can't listen to an amp, tear it down, put in a different opamp and expect to have any kind of valid test. Our knowledge of engineering, confirmed by measurements and science of psychoacoustics says there is no audible difference.

Note that mistakes can be made that do cause audible differences. If the new opamp causes oscillation for example, that could be audible. If you change volume, as a pair of youtubers did, of course you can perceive a difference. So it is not that it is impossible to hear something. It is that you need to do your homework in any such swaps and very preferably, measure to see what has happened. This rules out any audiophile testing, no matter how golden you think your ears are.

Finally, our instrumentation as always is exceedingly accurate, able to dig way, way below threshold of hearing to find differences. So it is not that our measurements are blind to differences. They are not. We can see and evaluate the changes and confidently confirm lack of audibility in such swaps.

As to Sparkos SS3602, it works and doesn't harm anything. But doesn't improve your amplifier either for reasons stated above.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

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First of all thank you so much for study it very useful. Said that, Well I replaced the stock opamps "world best measuring ones" ti opamps OPA1612 which paired with my purifi 1et400a from Cymax SE series, even subjectively sounded and little more body and relaxed due linear psu (I know is just subjectively though, not proof) it still didn't sound warm but neutral... Well I installed know Australian made big discrete class-A orange metal Op-amp and subjectively wow!!! That converted my slightly neutral -but not as subjectively sterile sounding as the SMPS builds with ic opamps - 1et400a class D amp with linear PSU in a subjectively pure-class-A warm single-ended warm sounding amplifier just for using this Op-amp!!! Burson V7 Classic, this thing converts any sterile sounding class D amplifier into a "warm tube-like sounding class D" it's amazing sound warmer actually than pass ACA real class A power amp with hundreds less power consumption and hundreds more output power. This thing will make people, yes there is there, who still use discrete class AB amplifier or even worse pure class class A low power high output impedance, converts to class D and still have EVEN WARMER sound just for according chatgpt 1w (one) more power consumption. Yes , pure class A single ended sound for 1w more draw. This is a green revolution!
 

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Different how?
Listen, perhaps measurements -which are really helpful and make us to understand what's happening - doesn't draw what's happening with current and impedance, but obviously when a audio circuit is full discrete, the internal conductors , capacitors, transistors, inductors, etc has more conductivity because larger gauge and less resistance which obviously translate into better current delivery and lower output impedance even in class-D Output like in discretes Purifi or Hypex has way more power, lower output impedance than other also class-D amp but chip-based like the other way great TI TPA3255 PFFB which also sounds great but obviously has a limitation in terms of absolutely lowest output impedance (conductivity current), which translates in better dynamics with normal low sensitivity low impedance speakers. With Op-amp happens the same, discrete means more conductivity way more which translates into better dynamics with low impedance low sensitivity internal circuits around. And if that Op-amp is also real class-A like the one Australian or American brand mentioned in this page, you also have that transistors higher temperature which translates into a subjectively warmer sound like happens in absurdly big absurdly heavy absurdly high current consumption all pure class A amplifiers/tube amplifier but with just , according chatgpt, only one watt of power consumption and only 10grams more of weight.
You get the "passlabs class-A warm sound" in your efficient, small, cheap, cool at touch, low output impedance, big output power, high SINAD class-D rig which is amazing and one of best things happened to budget hi-fi and budget studio audio since transformer-volume-control line-preamps.
 
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