• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Op-amp Rolling Using Sparkos on Fosi V3 Mono

Rate this opamp rolling study:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 7 4.6%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 11 7.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 14 9.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 119 78.8%

  • Total voters
    151
Comparing 2 power amplifiers and matching the level, you do not consider interactions of power amp output with speakers, right? Because the single tone method would not tell you.

Yep that's what I already explained in a post before the one you quoted.
When measuring amplifiers under actual speaker load and the amplifiers have an unusual high output resistance opposite the other one it becomes a bit more complex.
Most speakers present a decent and often quite resistive load around 1kHz so level matching at 1kHz makes sense. This also happens to be a frequency where electronics have the least distortion. So level matching at 1kHz with actual loads makes sense. Any differences due to interaction with loads thus might become audible. That is the goal so is telling. I do not get what you mean with 'would not tell you'.
Level matching amps through speakers using a microphone would be a really silly thing to do with any single frequency.

In this case it is about the silly (stupid ?) and pointless op-amp swapping in these kind of amplifiers where an op-amp is just a buffer/few x gain or phase splitter. No level matching is needed simply because the level will not change as it is not determined by an op-amp in the applications we are talking about here. Not at audible levels.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MAB
When it is broken (which in practice never happens) and even then a $ 1.- opamp is already more than good enough in this amp.
I have a FOSI ZD3 with LME 49720MA OpAmps inside.
My order was shipped with three (3) extra JRC 4580Ds, to roll my own.
Though I don't smoke, I had thought to keep the JRC 4580Ds, as spares.
You are causing e-Waste.;)
 
I wonder where there’s any other hobby where people actively seek out placebo effects.
I wonder why we went from 'tube rolling' straight to 'op-amp rolling' and skipped the whole 'transistor rolling' thing.

Wouldn't that be fun... various transistors in sockets... One could even wonder why amps were never made on breadboards so all components can be swapped and it would be easy to modify amps as audiophiles seem to know more about electronics than designers do.
1743830443828.png

TO-220-.jpg

1743830334523.png


This last one was actually quite common.


wouldn't it be fun if your DAC looks like this inside ?
1743831069330.png
 
Last edited:
I wonder why we went from 'tube rolling' straight to 'op-amp rolling' and skipped the whole 'transistor rolling' thing.

Wouldn't that be fun... various transistors in sockets... One could even wonder why amps were never made on breadboards so all components can be swapped and it would be easy to modify amps as audiophiles seem to know more about electronics than designers do.
View attachment 442028
View attachment 442026
View attachment 442027

This last one was actually quite common.


wouldn't it be fun if your DAC looks like this inside ?
View attachment 442030

Last summer I did just that.

In a Pearl 3 (see DYIaudio.com) I installed sockets and swapped in and out several different Jfet transistors.
 
I wonder why we went from 'tube rolling' straight to 'op-amp rolling' and skipped the whole 'transistor rolling' thing.

Wouldn't that be fun... various transistors in sockets... One could even wonder why amps were never made on breadboards so all components can be swapped and it would be easy to modify amps as audiophiles seem to know more about electronics than designers do.
View attachment 442028
View attachment 442026
View attachment 442027

This last one was actually quite common.


wouldn't it be fun if your DAC looks like this inside ?
View attachment 442030
I think it’s because op are more ”safe” they have some protection and inherent stability margins ? And it’s ”works”

I can imagine transistor power amps turning into instant smoke and light shows :D 99% of times with the wrong component swap
 
Last summer I did just that.

In a Pearl 3 (see DYIaudio.com) I installed sockets and swapped in and out several different Jfet transistors.

That is what designers can do when they want to play with some components in circuits and not just use simulations.
 
Level matching amps through speakers using a microphone would be a really silly thing to do with any single frequency
Of course. In case that amplifiers have frequency response dependent on complex load, which may be in 0.1 dB to 1 dB order, thus audible, you have to record outputs electrically and examine it by Deltawave or Adobe Audition. Based on such analysis you make matching according to average rms or similar criterion. It is much more precise than single tone 1kHz matching. Try it. This forum is called Audio Science, not Laymen.
 
wouldn't it be fun if your DAC looks like this inside ?

If you think audiophiles would then be swapping components you are wrong. They would be swapping the breadboard because we all know how unmusical plastic is ;) Teak breadboards have a much blacker background.
 
Last edited:
No. It is hard to make these FFT overlays be revealing. But here is a better shot:

View attachment 441980

I consider all of these differences negligible and subject to run to run variations.

The idea behind this FFT was to show broadband view which is quite similar and no oscillation is seen.

Thank you! That’s a bit disenchanting for me. Because 10% in me are still subjectivist / snakeoil-believer for sure. ;)
 
If you think audiophiles would then be swapping components you are wrong. They would be swapping the breadboard because we all know how unmusical plastic is ;) Teak breadboards have a much blacker background.
A whole new market would be born... be careful what you wish for...
Soon we will be seeing choices of gear available with 99.999999 pure oxygen free copper PCB's instead of 'regular copper', silver (or silver plated copper) PCB's. Gold plated already exists but would then be used as audiophile claim or PCB's being soldered with special Kester solder or 99.9999% silver solder or pint-welded pins etc.
 
solderdude said:

Sure...

I think the goal of ASR is to post the technical side such as (basic) measurements and discuss these, but not the math and electronic design stuff for nerds/experts, so readers could benefit. Usually that does get discussed in the thread in some depth.

You can't win them all so I see no reason not to explain things anymore because a few of them don't (want to) get it.
You also can't please designers and electronic engineers.
You can't do a full suite of measurements under all conditions (including overload) in all situations either.

So reviews are limited in what they show.
Techie guys would prefer more measurements, others want more 'subjective babble', others want features explained/measured more or want different measurements.
It is what it is.
Thank you, all testing needs to be carefully considered, doesn't it?, otherwise it can and will be considered flawed (or even nonsense), won't it?

The Listening Room can be considered as a decaying/reproduction mechanism, by necessity, can't it? It will have a resulting Noise Floor, won't it? Once the decaying Note/Harmonics reach the Listening Rooms Noise Floor they will become changed/corrupted, that is combine with the Noise Floor and now become confused feedback/Listening GFB (and at this instance are unrecoverable and can be called, non-Pure, can't they?), won't they?

Ears (Audiblety)/Eyes (Holographic/3D)/Brain (Santa Claustrum and its connection to Consciousness or Cognitive control)/Body (especially low Frequency/s), are these also a part of the Test? It could be suggested that they (definitely) are, what, why? Ultimately, these are the Listener and Respectfully so, are asking that they enjoy what they are being presented with, as a Music/Musical/Alive/Real/Right experience…. this is reasonable, isn’t it? If yes, then People need to be considered, never Dismissed…. which is reasonable isn’t it?. If no, then it could be suggested that People are not the focus (desire/Intent), isn’t it? The Respect and Relationship/Context, with reference to the Listener, at some point needs to become objective Impressions with a repeatable Conclusion/s, doesn’t it? A Theoretical/Applied Scientific Process, isn’t it?

Passivation….
  • Electronics….
    • It could be suggested that Electronic Tech would not exist without Electrical Tech, Electrical Tech would not exist without Material Tech, and none of these would exist without Idea/s, would they? Especially in semiconductor device fabrication, "electronic passivation" refers to a process that reduces or eliminates surface electronic states (dangling bonds and defects) that can hinder device performance, typically by creating an effective, protective layer or modifying the surface.
    • Further, re N/D (objective) measurement, is a Test to reveal if the Standing Wave Resonance/Ringing/Spikeing Diffusion/Compatable (Impedance/voltage/current) process/s has/have achieved/Helpful/beneficial and resulted in low/ultra low N/D. Note that it could/can be called a Diffuseing/Compatable/Peace Making process/s which indicate Stableness/Stablety/Compatablety, don’t they? Note not Peace Keeping which is by Force (not Passivation), isn’t it. It could be suggested to Dampen only if required, why? because Dampening can become Saturated/Saturation which becomes Hindering/detrimental and cause worse/much worse N/D (objective) measurement, can’t it?
    • Further, re Ears (Audiblety)/Eyes (Holographic/3D)/Brain (Santa Claustrum and its connection to Consciousness or Cognitive control)/Body (especially low Frequency/s), are these also a part of the Test? It could be suggested that they (definitely) are, what, why? Ultimately, these are the Listener and Respectfully so, are asking that they enjoy what they are being presented with, as a Music/Musical/Alive/Real/Right experience…. this is reasonable, isn’t it? If yes, then People need to be considered, never Dismissed…. which is reasonable isn’t it?. If no, then it could be suggested that People are not the focus (desire/Intent), isn’t it? The Respect and Relationship/Context, with reference to Listener, at some point needs to become objective Impressions with a repeatable Conclusion/s, doesn’t it? A Theoretical/Applied Scientific Process, isn’t it?
  • Electrical…. It could be suggested that Electrical Tech would not exist without Material Tech, and none of these would exist without Idea/s, would they? Electrical passivation, in the context of electronics and materials science (Theoretical/Applied Scientific Process), is a process that creates an effective, protective layer, often a thin oxide film, on a metal surface to reduce its reactivity and prevent corrosion, ensuring reliable/effective electrical connections and component longevity.
For consideration, Amplifyers amplify, Speakers transduce, Listener/Listening Room (together/combined) are Vibration/Reflection actuators/receivers/interpretors, so not a simplistic event/process, is it? The commonality is Noise Floor which is further complicated by Vibration/Reflection coupleing, without sufficient decoupleing/diffusion and dampening where required/necessary, isn't it? Note that as Resolution increases so also can these characteristics and is always best controlled/tightened (without loseing the higher Resolution) upstream to lessen/manage the requirement/s downstream, isn’t it?

Electronics are usually dead flat between 100Hz and 10kHz so matching at any of those frequencies will be fine as long as the used meter is suited for the used frequency.
Thank you, but if they are not matched below 100Hz, wouldn't the resulting (bass frequency/s) decay change the presentation, between 100Hz and 10kHz, even though (initially) matched between 100Hz and 10kHz?
 
Last edited:
Of course. In case that amplifiers have frequency response dependent on complex load, which may be in 0.1 dB to 1 dB order, thus audible, you have to record outputs electrically and examine it by Deltawave or Adobe Audition. Based on such analysis you make matching according to average rms or similar criterion. It is much more precise than single tone 1kHz matching. Try it. This forum is called Audio Science, not Laymen.

There is a substantial difference between a direct comparison between amps in a well performed blind listening test and an analysis of recorded signals that also require an excellent quality ADC if you plan to split hairs.

Both attempt to quantify differences where the direct comparison is about audible differences found (or not found) by individuals taking the test where the analysis method is about measured differences where the found differences are not easily to tie directly to (possible) audible differences and to who.
IMO both methods are equally scientific and there is nothing layman about either method.

Layman would simply listen to 2 different amps, not really level matched nor with any other controls while knowing what is connected (Layman science) and have biases in place while believing they aren't affected by this and their ears are much more discriminating than any plot.
 
The Listening Room can be considered as a decaying/reproduction mechanism, by necessity, can't it?
It will have a resulting Noise Floor, won't it?
Once the decaying Note/Harmonics reach the Listening Rooms Noise Floor they will become changed/corrupted, that is combine with the Noise Floor and now become confused feedback/Listening GFB (and at this instance are unrecoverable and can be called, non-Pure, can't they?), won't they?

Of course, the thing is this all doesn't matter when comparing op-amps, amplifiers, DACs etc as long as levels are the same, transducers and placement as well as listening position is the same all the mentioned above aspects do not matter.

Ears (Audiblety)/Eyes (Holographic/3D)/Brain (Santa Claustrum and its connection to Consciousness or Cognitive control)/Body (especially low Frequency/s), are these also a part of the Test? It could be suggested that they (definitely) are, what, why? Ultimately, these are the Listener and Respectfully so, are asking that they enjoy what they are being presented with, as a Music/Musical/Alive/Real/Right experience…. this is reasonable, isn’t it? If yes, then People need to be considered, never Dismissed…. which is reasonable isn’t it?. If no, then it could be suggested that People are not the focus (desire/Intent), isn’t it? The Respect and Relationship/Context, with reference to the Listener, at some point needs to become objective Impressions with a repeatable Conclusion/s, doesn’t it? A Theoretical/Applied Scientific Process, isn’t it?
The same as above... it all does not matter when one is comparing op-amps or other parts in the used audio electronics. When there are differences that reach audible levels for the individual doing the test all the mentioned aspects remain the same.

Another VERY important aspect (when not switching directly) is audio-memory and the actual time the items are compared.

For consideration, Amplifyers amplify, Speakers transduce, Listener/Listening Room (together/combined) are Vibration/Reflection actuators/receivers/interpretors, so not a simplistic event/process, is it? The commonality is Noise Floor which is further complicated by Vibration/Reflection coupleing, without sufficient decoupleing/diffusion and dampening where required/necessary, isn't it? Note that as Resolution increases so also can these characteristics and is always best controlled/tightened upstream to lessen/manage the requirement/s downstream, isn’t it?
Here too... the most flawed aspect is the listener and its biases/conditions.
You need to realize that there are 4 very different things in audio that all have to come together.

  1. The electrical part (which won't change over time unless something is broken by design)
  2. The electrical to mechanical conversion (transducers) which is far from ideal but does reproduce well
  3. The acoustical part (movement of transducers + dispersion) including the room, transducer placement and listening position. When those do not change then that 'sauce' including aspect 2 is poured over everything in the same manner.
  4. The psycho acoustic part, the brain which processes things and is very variable depending on many many factors. This clearly and without doubt is the biggest and most unreliable factor. Using things like blind testing with proper controls removes/lowers a sizable amount of factors.

Comparing electronics is aspect 1 only and all the aspects you mention are irrelevant.
This thread is about swapping op-amps in this particular amplifier. About the technical side (factor 1 only). The other factors (other than time in factor 4) don't really change. What makes people believe they do hear differences is not caused by factors 1 to 2 but rather factor 3 and 4.
 
Last edited:
There is a substantial difference between a direct comparison between amps in a well performed blind listening test and an analysis of recorded signals that also require an excellent quality ADC if you plan to split hairs.

So, how do I match level of
Matching responses.png
2 integrated amplifiers with responses at "flat" setting like this? At 1 kHz? Really?
 
I wonder why we went from 'tube rolling' straight to 'op-amp rolling' and skipped the whole 'transistor rolling' thing.

Wouldn't that be fun... various transistors in sockets... One could even wonder why amps were never made on breadboards so all components can be swapped and it would be easy to modify amps as audiophiles seem to know more about electronics than designers do.
View attachment 442028
View attachment 442026
View attachment 442027

This last one was actually quite common.


wouldn't it be fun if your DAC looks like this inside ?
View attachment 442030
It's okay, we still can disconnect and roll cables...
 
Of course. In case that amplifiers have frequency response dependent on complex load, which may be in 0.1 dB to 1 dB order, thus audible, you have to record outputs electrically and examine it by Deltawave or Adobe Audition. Based on such analysis you make matching according to average rms or similar criterion. It is much more precise than single tone 1kHz matching. Try it. This forum is called Audio Science, not Laymen.
Ideally, when there are stronger differences than 0.1dB/20deg then simple level matching is impossible and A/B comparison will very likely be dominated by those differences.
That is, you can A/B those different frequency responses directly, without any DUT or with the same DUT eq'd and will get detectable differences from that alone.

That means, to compare two different DUTs, their frequency responses must be minutely matched first to remove this variable. And the variable itself can be checked independently.

I had one prominent case where people heard difference between a DAC output and the original recording but the "DAC output" actually was emulated only by its associated frequency and phase response and no other effects, no actual conversion.
 
Back
Top Bottom