Op-amp Rolling Using Sparkos on Fosi V3 Mono

[Jimster480]

They need to understand their hearing and perception, like every other human, is fallible.


JSmith

People don't like to hear that. Especially not audiophiles.

Understand, but that doesn't change what is percieved by a huge amount of audiophiles

A couple of objective forums Vs a hundreds of subjective forums and will still read here and there how much a câble change

Why this question ? What does it change to his statement?

I had expensive and cheap dacs.. blind listening made me understand the dacs are instiguishable while listening music, period

One just need to have courage to try doing blind testing

But audio is for some, only possessing expensive gear

I agree that for some people it is just about purchasing stuff which is expensive. They think that a higher price means that it will always sound better....

 

[Bel Canto]

I had expensive and cheap dacs.. blind listening made me understand the dacs are instiguishable while listening music, period

There must be something wrong with me, will make an appointment with an audiologist to get my hearing checked because I can hear differences between the dacs I own.
My topping E50 sounds noticeably different to my Schiit Bifrost 2 when listening to my Ananda Nano headphones on an Apos Gremlin amp. Same computer outputting the same file. One is warmer with more bass and noticeable wider sounding.

 

[solderdude]

Are similar reconstruction filters used ?
Have you tested this 'blind' ?
The Bifrost 2 has (reaching audibility borders) higher amount of distortion... could that be a reason ?

Review and Measurements of Schiit BiFrost DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Schiit BiFrost audio DAC. The unit is on kind loan from a member. The one I have doesn't have USB input so not sure if that is an older version or current??? Schiit website shows USB input as standard but then again there is some wording...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Can you record the output of both DACs ?
If one is 'warmer and has more bass' than this would be VERY measurable/recordable.
Also the 'warmer and more bass' is a typical effect of a difference in output level. Were the output levels matched within 0.1dB as the Bifrost 2 has 0.5dB higher output level?

The Bifrost 2 would not qualify as 'audibly transparent' where the E50 does.

 

[oleg87]

Close enough to where my money would be comfortably on sighted bias.
Even if it's plausible a very distortion-sensitive listener could discern them in a blind test, these would by no means be "clear" differences.

No need for audiologist visits, hearing illusory differences is the normal behavior of human hearing. That's why we go on and on about controls.

 

[Scrivs]

In case of usually used gain 1x - 20x for op-amps within audio circuits, OLG gain of normally used opamps (DC 100-130dB, 60-80dB at 1kHz), closed loop gain of the amp makes no difference after op-amp swapping.

I find all this and similar discussions with laymen audience to be pointless. Those who know they do know and those who do not will get almost nothing from short explanations. They need to learn and the forum is not a source.

The posts like that of Frans are rather a discussion between knowledgeable members. And they do not need to persuade each other that they do know.

well said sir.

Like a boss!

Way too many armchair EE wanabees-- clearly without any foundational Electronics. The basics even. Technical and intellectual laziness is right there atop the cringe-crown.

 

[Scrivs]

Isn't the idea of forums like this to educate laymen so they can learn from experienced (technical) people ?
If so ... what is pointless about the discussion ?
The forum and most of the discussions here are not for 'technical guys with deep knowledge' (like you amongst a few) but for others to learn and be educated by the more knowledgeable people.
And even knowledgeable people sometimes can't even fully agree on certain things, especially when perception is involved.

ASR visitors that want to learn about certain aspects can find more valuable info here from 'experienced techy guys' on ASR than on 'more subjective' sites.

100% agree with you re: so the layman can expand their knowledge.

BUT, on a daily basis, we have subject matter experts (such as yourself) graciously trying to share knowledge, to help non tech types understand trivial electronics basics. Which is laudable. However, it seems no matter how many times, and in how many ways concepts are conveyed, there's a percentage of members who are either: emotionally intertwined with. say, opamps, or they just come here to argue/troll/muddy the waters for the folks that are here in good faith. It's these dunces that besmirch and detract from the tremendous resource that Amirm and the true contributors have so generously created.

You can lead a donkey to water...

 

[Bel Canto]

Are similar reconstruction filters used ?
Have you tested this 'blind' ?
The Bifrost 2 has (reaching audibility borders) higher amount of distortion... could that be a reason ?

Review and Measurements of Schiit BiFrost DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Schiit BiFrost audio DAC. The unit is on kind loan from a member. The one I have doesn't have USB input so not sure if that is an older version or current??? Schiit website shows USB input as standard but then again there is some wording...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Can you record the output of both DACs ?
If one is 'warmer and has more bass' than this would be VERY measurable/recordable.
Also the 'warmer and more bass' is a typical effect of a difference in output level. Were the output levels matched within 0.1dB as the Bifrost 2 has 0.5dB higher output level?

The Bifrost 2 would not qualify as 'audibly transparent' where the E50 does.

So the power supply, output stage, filters etc would have no impact on the sound.

Perhaps if I listened to a 1khz tone they would sound the same.

 

[Scrivs]

 

[oleg87]

So the power supply, output stage, filters etc would have no impact on the sound.

…what do you think Amir’s measurements are measuring?

A little less snark about things you appear profoundly ignorant about would go a long way.

Skip the 1khz sine waves, try basic controls to ensure ears-only comparisons.

 

[amirm]

So the power supply, output stage, filters etc would have no impact on the sound.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. You can't tell anything from verbiage like that. Read the reviews. Learn what is measured, how to interpret them, and then you can opine.

Perhaps if I listened to a 1khz tone they would sound the same.

Literally hundreds of test tones are used in DAC measurements. Watch this video and take discussions about DACs and measurements elsewhere:

 

[JeremyFife]

So the power supply, output stage, filters etc would have no impact on the sound.

Perhaps if I listened to a 1khz tone they would sound the same.

I realise that this has already been said, but;

Yes, those things could have an impact on the sound. However, measurements of the devices output would show that. If measurements do not show any difference (above audible thresholds) then it is really, really, really unlikely that there is an audible impact on the sound.

If you want to check that, because you don't want to accept the measurements then that is absolutely fine. Use calibrated instruments and control for variables (basic stuff).

If you want to check that by listening then you MUST calibrate your ears, you MUST make a valid listening comparison otherwise you have no controls and your listening results are meaningless. That means: listen blind (double blind, you don't know and your helper doesn't know), level matched (+/- 0.1 dB), fast switching between samples and repeated tests (>10).

You don't have to accept this, that's your choice and that's fine ... but in that case, why are you here, what are you trying to achieve or learn?

 

[Bel Canto]

I realise that this has already been said, but;

Yes, those things could have an impact on the sound. However, measurements of the devices output would show that. If measurements do not show any difference (above audible thresholds) then it is really, really, really unlikely that there is an audible impact on the sound.

If you want to check that, because you don't want to accept the measurements then that is absolutely fine. Use calibrated instruments and control for variables (basic stuff).

If you want to check that by listening then you MUST calibrate your ears, you MUST make a valid listening comparison otherwise you have no controls and your listening results are meaningless. That means: listen blind (double blind, you don't know and your helper doesn't know), level matched (+/- 0.1 dB), fast switching between samples and repeated tests (>10).

You don't have to accept this, that's your choice and that's fine ... but in that case, why are you here, what are you trying to achieve or learn?

I'm here because I have an interest in the measurements.
What i have an issue with is being told that because the measurements are the same or similar, all dacs sound the same.
If that was the case why isn't everyone here using the same $100 dac that is perfectly transparent.
Why isnt everyone using the Topping L30ii Headphone Amp that is nearly the highest measuring amp on the chart and can put out 3w, enough to drive almost any pair of headphones on the planet.

Measurements are important in helping us identify which products are engineered and designed well. Just don't tell me they all sound the same cause the measure the same.

 

[trevor_bartram]

The 5532 dual was an improvement of the 5534 single, I believe using double capacitor internal compensation just like the Sparkos opamps. The 5532 has very good electrical specs. Opamp improvements since the 70s have centered on features & parameters not relevant to high-level signal high-impedance domestic HiFi applications.

 

[antcollinet]

There must be something wrong with me, will make an appointment with an audiologist to get my hearing checked because I can hear differences between the dacs I own.

Nothing is wrong with you. You just have the same auditory system that every other human posesses. Perceptivie biases are taking place all the time - with all our senses. We could not function if our unconcous brain were not pre-processing the raw data from our senses.

Here is an exaple of how what you see can change what you hear. Not the same bias as happens with music listening - this is speech related. But it is a good example, non-the-less.

Furthermore how have you level matched to account for the likely differences in output voltage from your DACs?

 

[antcollinet]

If that was the case why isn't everyone here using the same $100 dac that is perfectly transparent.

Because there is far more to the choice of a DAC than pure sound quality.

 

[oleg87]

Just don't tell me they all sound the same cause the measure the same.

Yet that’s precisely what the measurements tell us. If there is no sign of two devices’ outputs doing something other than tracking a common input with great accuracy, how could it not be the case? How do you get more bass without, uh, having more bass? It strains your credulity because you’ve clearly never tested the degree to which your hearing can fool you. If you do this enough, you quickly learn 99.9% of internet audio discourse is just people finding shapes in clouds, worth paying zero attention to unless actual evidence is presented.

Now obviously it’s possible any given set of measurements missed something, but uncontrolled subjective impressions are, at best, a starting point for further investigation. If there’s a big difference in sound, there must be a big difference in the signal coming out of that box - no magic is involved.

 

[solderdude]

So the power supply, output stage, filters etc would have no impact on the sound.

Perhaps if I listened to a 1khz tone they would sound the same.

That is totally not what I said.

What I stated is that the 0.5dB level difference could perfectly explain what you heard when switching directly between DACs.
The other point I made was that the E50 could be considered as audibly transparent where the Schitt is not.

My remarks validated your claim that you could (possibly) hear differences between those DACs for technical reasons.

I'm here because I have an interest in the measurements.
What i have an issue with is being told that because the measurements are the same or similar, all dacs sound the same.

Except ... these 2 DACs do not measure the same and not even similar.

 

[solderdude]

However, it seems no matter how many times, and in how many ways concepts are conveyed, there's a percentage of members who are either: emotionally intertwined with. say, opamps, or they just come here to argue/troll/muddy the waters for the folks that are here in good faith.

Sure...

I think the goal of ASR is to post the technical side such as (basic) measurements and discuss these, but not the math and electronic design stuff for nerds/experts, so readers could benefit. Usually that does get discussed in the thread in some depth.

You can't win them all so I see no reason not to explain things anymore because a few of them don't (want to) get it.
You also can't please designers and electronic engineers.
You can't do a full suite of measurements under all conditions (including overload) in all situations either.

So reviews are limited in what they show.
Techie guys would prefer more measurements, others want more 'subjective babble', others want features explained/measured more or want different measurements.
It is what it is.

 

[JeremyFife]

I'm here because I have an interest in the measurements.
What i have an issue with is being told that because the measurements are the same or similar, all dacs sound the same.
If that was the case why isn't everyone here using the same $100 dac that is perfectly transparent.
Why isnt everyone using the Topping L30ii Headphone Amp that is nearly the highest measuring amp on the chart and can put out 3w, enough to drive almost any pair of headphones on the planet.

Measurements are important in helping us identify which products are engineered and designed well. Just don't tell me they all sound the same cause the measure the same.

That's cool.

We buy different gear, and spend more than is needed for sound quality, for a number of reasons - features, build quality, brand loyalty, aesthetics ... some completely irrational. We're all human.

The hard part to accept is that;
a) yes, electronic gear that measures the same does sound the same (usual caveats about operating within design limits)
b) listening without controls tells you NOTHING (nothing useful, nothing that can be shared with other people)

If this still bothers you, have a go at a blind, level-matched, listening comparison yourself. Other users here have done that and found that it's not too hard to do - does take a little time and a little effort.
That's the only way you can get out of your current impasse.

Meanwhile, enjoy music - that's what we are all here for

 

[Talisman]

If that was the case why isn't everyone here using the same $100 dac that is perfectly transparent.

You tell me, I use a 100 euro dac, I really don't know why others like to pay 10,000 euros for something that is already transparent on 20 euro a pair Bluetooth earphones....
DACs should be chosen for the extra features, peq, controls, input, output, remote control etc etc, certainly not because they "sound" different.