Op-amp Rolling Using AIYIMA A07

[NotInYourHead]

Op amps is about clarity, stage, range and colour of the sound. It is about what you hear not about numbers. All you need to know is that the op amp has similar power requirement that you are replacing.

This is a debate of a taste and we are all different. ne5532 that most of the D class amps have is OK and if you change it halve of the people can't spot the difference. We all have different hearing.

50/50 is not a terrific number; it's essentially a dice roll whether you can or can't hear the differences.
You can't confidently say "we have different hearing" when the operating range of an op-amp extends well into Mhz.

 

[KL....]

But what about some discrete class A high-end opamps like Bursons, Sparcos and so on? Yours are just too similar on the paper.
I mean you cant really expect an moist sound with bigger soundstage from some cheap IC LME49720.

And whats the point of making the rolls on this limited cheap amp? You clearly need an Apollon or Audiophonics Hypex/Purifi with custom buffer to have a benefit from rolling.

Also why not using an DAC/HP amp for the rolling? Thats where the real magic happens! Its day n night!

Thank you, @SnakeLord, Yes, do Hypex or Purifi use the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers? They do offer alternatives in/with their Buffers, don't they? Perhaps we should try the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers or perhaps Hypex or Purifi should offer the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers, reasonable?

 

[KL....]

Wow, - 97 dB HD3 without PFFB is quite an achievement. When did you buy these amps?
Back in 2021 they looked like this makeing me wonder if Aiyima added some PFFB without advertising

Thank you, @capslock, this suggests that the TPA3255 has some form of Compensation/FB, doesn't it?

 

[capslock]

Yes, the 3255 has feedback from its output, i.e. pre filter. That does not include the output coil which can be quite nonlinear. PFFB includes the output coil, but in its standard implemantation, it lowers distortion by about 6 dB only because there is limited feedback factor availeable.

 

[KL....]

Yes, the 3255 has feedback from its output, i.e. pre filter. That does not include the output coil which can be quite nonlinear. PFFB includes the output coil, but in its standard implementation, it lowers distortion by about 6 dB only because there is limited feedback factor available.

Thank you, @capslock, Yes, the output coil, even if Linear by measure, needs to deal with the Reactive Load, doesn't it, which is variable, isn't it, hence the (further) benefit/s of PFFB/etc (if well implemented).

 

[Wolf11Man]

I see no value in OP-amp rolling. Instead of improvement, you may even get a worse result if the IC doesn't match the surounding parameters.

Anyway, there is another problem with fake OP-amps. Even as we think the NE5532 is dead cheap, it is faked in any possible way. I think you will not find a "real" one on ebay or Ali. Don't ask about the more expensive ones sold there, you have to be a bit retarded to expect some expensive OPAxy bought cheap from China to be real.

I have the habit of buying more than one example of the gear I will modify if possible. First, I like to have a spare, second, when I do test components for audible changes., I can do 1:1 comparison without time delay. If you can not do A/B comparison within 3 seconds, you like to fool yourself.

I have found NE5532 fakes inside chip D-amps that sound really bad. Not the "maybe it is a bit clearer with the high head attak" audiphile nonsense speak, but real day and night. Sound went repeatable bad/ good when replaced by a 5532 bought directly from MOUSER.
So if you want to change OP-amps, first replace the one inside your amp for an identical, 100% original example. Mark the real one when you take it out of the box!
With those low priced TPA3255 or even TPA3116 boards, you may be surprised. If there is no difference,with the real NE5532 you loose around 3$ for a pair. Low risk I think.

I do not know what OP-amps can generate such a terrible sound, even the once dead cheapTL072. 82 and the like do not degrade sound. Even used in multiples they are quite transparent.

Maybe a lot of the myth of better sounding, expensive OP-amps comes from the use of fake parts.

 

[SnakeLord]

No specification from proper/mainstream manufacturer of op-amp claims these things. What do you know that they don't???

Idk if you count Burson, Sprkos or Apollon to them but...

"The V7 Vivid stands out for its dynamism, clarity, and accuracy. It is an ideal choice for recording engineers who prioritize absolute precision." - Burson

"Our custom input buffer board by default comes with the very advanced OPA 1656 operational amplifiers. But if you would at any time wish to change the sound characteristics of the Apollon 1ET6525SA ST amplifier you can do so with simply exchanging the op amp (so called Op amp rolling)." - Apollon

 

[amirm]

Idk if you count Burson, Sprkos or Apollon to them but...

I do not. They cater to audiophile myths and clearly target these misinformed people.

 

[Beave]

Burson, Sparkos, and Apollon are legitimate op-amp manufacturers in the same sense that Audioquest, Nordost, and Synergistic Research are legitimate cable manufacturers.

In other words, yes, they make a product, but their claims about their products are FOS.

 

[SnakeLord]

Thank you, @SnakeLord, Yes, do Hypex or Purifi use the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers? They do offer alternatives in/with their Buffers, don't they? Perhaps we should try the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers or perhaps Hypex or Purifi should offer the NE5532 or LME49720 in their Buffers, reasonable?

If you take Apollon as example which is using a custom buffer stage on its own Hypex/Purifi amps, they do utilize OPA 1656 as standard stock op amps solution. Which i would say is very similar in price/performance to the mentioned NE5532/LME49720.

Eventho the Apollon says that the performance of the stock OPA 1656 is already sufficient and good enough, they still offer and promote the "opamp rolling" nonesense. If you look at the prices, you get the idea why they do. Huge money for some psychoaccoustics coocked in snake oil.

 

[antcollinet]

Op amps is about clarity, stage, range and colour of the sound. It is about what you hear not about numbers. All you need to know is that the op amp has similar power requirement that you are replacing.

This is a debate of a taste and we are all different. ne5532 that most of the D class amps have is OK and if you change it halve of the people can't spot the difference. We all have different hearing.

Watch and understand the following. Changing opamps in an already competent design can only degrade the sound. Most of the time in any case it will do nothing audible for any human.

Remember that there is nothing we can hear that can't be measured, and there is only noise, distortion and frequency response that can impact the sound.

Does Op-amp Rolling Work? [Video]

In this video I "upgrade" the 57 cent op-amp in the Douk A5 stereo amplifier with a $49 one. Does it make a measured difference? Watch to find out: Test review at: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-op-amp-rolling-work.61518/ Please subscribe to the channel. It...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amplifier Op-amp Rolling Part 2 [Video]

Follow up video I did on op-amp rolling, covering the latest two tests: [And subscribe to the channel :) ]

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Nopiano]

…in the same sense that Audioquest, Nordost, and Synergistic Research are legitimate cable manufacturers.

If only they were!

 

[KL....]

If you take Apollon as example which is using a custom buffer stage on its own Hypex/Purifi amps, they do utilize OPA 1656 as standard stock op amps solution. Which i would say is very similar in price/performance to the mentioned NE5532/LME49720.

Eventho the Apollon says that the performance of the stock OPA 1656 is already sufficient and good enough, they still offer and promote the "opamp rolling" nonesense. If you look at the prices, you get the idea why they do. Huge money for some psychoaccoustics coocked in snake oil.

Watch and understand the following. Changing opamps in an already competent design can only degrade the sound. Most of the time in any case it will do nothing audible for any human.

Remember that there is nothing we can hear that can't be measured, and there is only noise, distortion and frequency response that can impact the sound.

Does Op-amp Rolling Work? [Video]

In this video I "upgrade" the 57 cent op-amp in the Douk A5 stereo amplifier with a $49 one. Does it make a measured difference? Watch to find out: Test review at: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-op-amp-rolling-work.61518/ Please subscribe to the channel. It...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amplifier Op-amp Rolling Part 2 [Video]

Follow up video I did on op-amp rolling, covering the latest two tests: [And subscribe to the channel :) ]

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you, @SnakeLord/@antcollinet, Yes, although if you do not mind, could you clarify what 'is already sufficient and good enough' and 'competent design' mean, especially with relevance to measure and for others, from your personal experiences/observations. This is certainly a thread that is relevant for such clarification, isn't it?

It does make you consider/wonder why they consider the other opamp options as worthy of the extra cost/s although if explained by measures/considerations, such as Input/Output Impedance and/or Input/Output V/I and/or FR Linearity/Stablety, and/or N/D, and/or Longevity, etc then that would be reasonable, wouldn't it?

 

[Buckeye Amps]

It does make you consider/wonder why they consider the other opamp options as worthy of the extra cost/s

Margins

 

[EngineerNate]

Margins

Relevant.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, although if you do not mind, could you clarify what 'is already sufficient and good enough' and 'competent design'

For almost everyone in real world listening conditions - Something of the order of the "Lenient" thresholds here:

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The strict limits are (rarely) applicable to cover all humans (including trained 16 year olds, who have never been to a concert without hearing protection) under all circumstances (including sound proofed listening rooms while using headphones, under test conditions)

Recap of thresholds
Lenient
Dynamic range, linearity: 96 dB
THD, IMD: -66 dBFS / 0.05%
Noise: -85 dBFS / 0.005%
SINAD: 85 dB
Crosstalk: -60 dBFS
Jitter: -110 dBFS, -100 dBFS around the main tone
Frequency response: ±0.5 dB
Channel balance: 1 dB
Output impedance: 2 ohms

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

 

[KL....]

For almost everyone in real world listening conditions - Something of the order of the "Lenient" thresholds here:

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The strict limits are (rarely) applicable to cover all humans (including trained 16 year olds, who have never been to a concert without hearing protection) under all circumstances (including sound proofed listening rooms while using headphones, under test conditions)

Recap of thresholds
Lenient
Dynamic range, linearity: 96 dB
THD, IMD: -66 dBFS / 0.05%
Noise: -85 dBFS / 0.005%
SINAD: 85 dB
Crosstalk: -60 dBFS
Jitter: -110 dBFS, -100 dBFS around the main tone
Frequency response: ±0.5 dB
Channel balance: 1 dB
Output impedance: 2 ohms

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

Thank you, @antcollinet, as you have quoted my post, it would appear that you are suggesting that Competent is Strict (interchangeable), reasonable, which indicates that most of the ASR tested/measured units can be considered as not being Competent, includeing Hypex & Purifi (tested/measured as Excellent), reasonable by your Defineing of Competent/Strict?

By the ASR tests/measures to date, note that this level of Competentcy/Strictness will be very tough to realise, won’t it, but at least we are now aware of the very High Level of your Focus/Expectation, reasonable, but good to be aware, isn’t it? Not everybodys Expectations will be as very High as yours, so being (extra) concise, especially (extra) precise, will be needed, won’t it? Delivery of the Message always needs to be a very High Focus (Competent/Strict, that is Wise as a Serpent but as Gentle as a Dove, reasonable), doesn’t it?

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

 

[antcollinet]

Thank you, @antcollinet, as you have quoted my post, it would appear that you are suggesting that Competent is Strict (interchangeable), reasonable, which indicates that most of the ASR tested/measured units can be considered as not being Competent, includeing Hypex & Purifi (tested/measured as Excellent), reasonable by your Defineing of Competent/Strict?

By the ASR tests/measures to date, note that this level of Competentcy/Strictness will be very tough to realise, won’t it, but at least we are now aware of the very High Level of your Focus/Expectation, reasonable, but good to be aware, isn’t it? Not everybodys Expectations will be as very High as yours, so being (extra) concise, especially (extra) precise, will be needed, won’t it? Delivery of the Message always needs to be a very High Focus (Competent/Strict, that is Wise as a Serpent but as Gentle as a Dove, reasonable), doesn’t it?

Strict
Dynamic range, linearity, SINAD: 120 dB
THD, IMD, noise, crosstalk, jitter: -120 dBFS / 0.0001%
Frequency response, channel balance: ±0.1 dB
Output impedance: 0.16 ohms

No, competent is lenient, as I clearly stated. When no-one can hear the flaws in real world listening - it is good enough. Competent includes *everything* in the blue and green sections of the charts.


Further - even if someone is technically able to hear the lenient thresholds under test conditions with rapid switching - it is never going to be sufficient to impact enjoyment of music.

 

[KL....]

No, competent is lenient, as I clearly stated. When no-one can hear the flaws in real world listening - it is good enough. Competent includes *everything* in the blue and green sections of the charts.


Further - even if someone is technically able to hear the lenient thresholds under test conditions with rapid switching - it is never going to be sufficient to impact enjoyment of music.

Thank you, @antcollinet, good to be aware that you consider competent is lenient, reasonable, although it can/could be suggested that the lenient measure is (just) competent (just/adequately good enough) and Strict as (very/sufficiently) competent, reasonable. There are degrees/levels of competent, lenient, strict, good enough, aren't there, although it can/could be suggested that competent (with clarifycation, such as poor, low, just/lenient, high/strict, very high, exceptional) covers all degrees/levels of competentcy, reasonable. Always good to ask and clarify, isn't it, otherwise assumption, dismission, confusion condition/behaviour will occur, won't it, arrogant to suggest otherwise, isn't it.

Lenient
Dynamic range, linearity: 96 dB
THD, IMD: -66 dBFS / 0.05%
Noise: -85 dBFS / 0.005%
SINAD: 85 dB
Crosstalk: -60 dBFS
Jitter: -110 dBFS, -100 dBFS around the main tone
Frequency response: ±0.5 dB
Channel balance: 1 dB
Output impedance: 2 ohms

 

[antcollinet]

There are degrees/levels of competent, lenient, strict, good enough, aren't there

I just answerd your question with my understanding. Feel free to make your own definition.