Oops! Not fatigued by B&W speakers

[DavidM1]

I don't think there's anything awry if reviewers who philosophically favor the flattest response possible don't review them very often.

No, there probably isn’t. I think the thing that I’m attempting to reconcile is the expectation of a downward sloping frequency response. It seems an accepted part of speaker measurements to praise it but without a lot of discussion of the angle. To me, a steeper angle would be disappointing even when the FR is pristinely linear.

I would enjoy seeing measurements of B&W speakers, if only to see what is going on. I’m not entirely satisfied by the blanket criticism of the brand without measurements. As I mentioned, I don’t find the treble at all fatiguing. It is natural to my ears. I enjoy the tonality and detail in the sound stage that comes with more perceptible high end.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I'd suggest reading that article more carefully. The studies cited generally found either no significant difference in thresholds between the musicians and the general population, or only slightly worse NIHL in the musicians. Also, mild NIHL in no way explains having/preferring "terrible sound systems".

Yes, I thought that was a different article. Anyway, there are a lot of studies out there. This seems to be the largest in scope, a massive meta-study.

https://aao-hnsfjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ohn.70094

Sixty-seven studies (n = 28,311) on auditory symptoms among musicians were included. The mean age was 34.7 years for the musicians and 30.2 years for the control group. Musicians experienced a significantly higher prevalence of tinnitus (42.6% vs 13.2%), hearing loss (25.7% vs 11.6%), and hyperacusis (37.3% vs 15.3%) compared to the control population. However, there was no significant difference in the prevalence of hearing loss, hyperacusis, and tinnitus between classical and pop/rock musicians.

 

[bmc0]

the expectation of a downward sloping frequency response

There's no expectation of a downward-sloping axial response.

 

[DavidM1]

So if a recording engineer wants to record a musician, which perspective does he choose - the perspective of the performer or the perspective of the audience? Isn't the perspective of the audience the standard?

It actually depends on the music and creative choices made by the producer. Solo performers might be both recorded closely and at a distance. Large ensembles might have a range of microphone placements or if the recording is for broadcast then they may simply use microphones rigged for the hall with some placed on particular instruments or voices.

As Dialectic suggests above, mic placement and choice can make a big difference.

 

[Chrispy]

OTOH its the generally poor measuremnts they provide....

 

[Jim Taylor]

I think the thing that I’m attempting to reconcile is the expectation of a downward sloping frequency response.

You might be interested in this discussion at Gearspace, in a thread initiated by our member @sigbergaudio. Lots of information in here, much of it by inference attributable to reproduction as well as production.

https://gearspace.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1409030-room-response-flat-sloped.html

 

[Brennan Huff]

So much generalising! So little sophisticated reasoning!

I mentioned that I had owned other speakers and that I regularly hear music performed to show my points of reference. My post is clearly anecdotal - no more, no less.

Well, he's 100% right, you used an appeal to authority fallacy in your OP. More than one actually, as you mentioned recording studio's, which is not anecdotal.

I feel like you know the answer to your own question. So is your real point that ASR/Erin's testing results in a self-fulfilling prophecy (and therefore group think) because of what they test, or something along those lines?

I guarantee you either Erin or Amir will test your B&W's if you send them in.

 

[bmc0]

This seems to be the largest in scope, a massive meta-study.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of hearing loss in the control population was self-reported rather than measured, which probably underestimates true prevalence by a considerable margin. In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if NIHL is somewhat worse in musicians than in the general population, but I also think it's quite a leap to assume that it has a large influence on their loudspeaker preferences.

 

[Ageve]

I would enjoy seeing measurements of B&W speakers, if only to see what is going on. I’m not entirely satisfied by the blanket criticism of the brand without measurements.

Bowers and Wilkins HTM81 D4 Center Channel Speaker Review

Bowers and Wilkins HTM81 D4 Center Channel Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Respectfully, those folks are not relevant. I am referring to well equipped recording studios for classical music.

ASR is a fabulous place and it is easy to see what would constitute a high fidelity system for most components. However, the B&W sound might not measure as acceptably here as other speakers but has a good level of professional regard. Curious.

I think you will find that B&W is not a typical choice for studios, for the simple reason that this is not the target audience for B&W. Also they do not offer active speakers, which is what almost all studios use. The studios that do use B&W is likely a result of an active collaboration / partnership with the intent of marketing B&W.

The above is not an argument for or against the quality of B&W, it's simply fact / context.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

No, there probably isn’t. I think the thing that I’m attempting to reconcile is the expectation of a downward sloping frequency response. It seems an accepted part of speaker measurements to praise it but without a lot of discussion of the angle. To me, a steeper angle would be disappointing even when the FR is pristinely linear.

Most speakers including B&W will have a downward slope in-room. As you say, the angle will vary, and what works best depends on the speaker design and room.

I would enjoy seeing measurements of B&W speakers, if only to see what is going on. I’m not entirely satisfied by the blanket criticism of the brand without measurements. As I mentioned, I don’t find the treble at all fatiguing. It is natural to my ears. I enjoy the tonality and detail in the sound stage that comes with more perceptible high end.

My impression is that B&W design speakers to be played without toe-in, so having the speakers parallell with the wall. This means the correct reference angle is off-axis, and this will reduce the energy in the treble.

We don't have a lot of high resolution measurements of B&W, but we have at least one measured by Amir. If we look at the 20 degree angle (closer to actual listening angle than on-axis), we see that the overall tonality is actually quite neutral.

For others looking at measurements at soundstage or stereophile or wherever, if you reduce the level by maybe 2dB from 1-2khz and up, this will likely be more representative of what you actually listen to in-room. Some models will still have a slighlty elevated treble, but often not until 3-4khz, which will add sparkle rather than be fatiguing.

I have also measured a number of 800-series B&W properly set up in-room, and they typically don't measure too bad (or sound too bad). Some models have deviations in the response that shouldn't be there, not sure why they've ended up with those. But they aren't necessarily of a character that is very audible.

 

[Ilraptoria]

For quite some time, I've admired the look of many B&W speakers. I've never had the opportunity to listen to anything from the company for more than just a couple of minutes on any given occasion (in a dealer showroom, at a friend's father's house). While it may be that B&W speakers do not have the most desirable measurements, this is a nice video of how an 800 Series Diamond speaker gets made.

The making of an 800 Series Diamond speaker

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Other than Abbey Road, which other studios use B&W speakers? And which model speaker? Do they use any EQ with them? Do they have any kind of marketing agreements with B&W?



Both Amir and Erin tend to review what is sent to them - either by the manufacturer or by a customer.

Stereophile and Soundstage (using Canada's NRC facilities) have reviewed and measured several B&W models over the years.

Look inside some of the world's top recording studios. That doesn't mean they're good speakers objectively.

That's a picture inside Deutsche Grammophon's studio in Berlin.

 

[Beave]

Most speakers including B&W will have a downward slope in-room. As you say, the angle will vary, and what works best depends on the speaker design and room.



My impression is that B&W design speakers to be played without toe-in, so having the speakers parallell with the wall. This means the correct reference angle is off-axis, and this will reduce the energy in the treble.

We don't have a lot of high resolution measurements of B&W, but we have at least one measured by Amir. If we look at the 20 degree angle (closer to actual listening angle than on-axis), we see that the overall tonality is actually quite neutral.

View attachment 531683


For others looking at measurements at soundstage or stereophile or wherever, if you reduce the level by maybe 2dB from 1-2khz and up, this will likely be more representative of what you actually listen to in-room. Some models will still have a slighlty elevated treble, but often not until 3-4khz, which will add sparkle rather than be fatiguing.

I have also measured a number of 800-series B&W properly set up in-room, and they typically don't measure too bad (or sound too bad). Some models have deviations in the response that shouldn't be there, not sure why they've ended up with those. But they aren't necessarily of a character that is very audible.

Compare those results - on a speaker model that's probably 20 years old - with their newer designs of the same model lineage:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

For their newer models, there's no good response angle.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Look inside some of the world's top recording studios. That doesn't mean they're good speakers objectively.

That's a picture inside Deutsche Grammophon's studio in Berlin.

Yes using different models from different series is really a good idea in a studio.

I am above all irritated by all the “authority” claims in the opening post.

Anyways, look at these FR measurement from stereophile, a speaker should be as flat as possible, which these B&W’s are clearly not:

10db difference between 1 and 10 khz?

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Yes using different models from different series really help in a studio.

I am above all irritated by all the “authority” claims in the opening post.

They're producing some of the main releases in the classical music world in that room. It might look strange to us and might not sound very enjoyable. But it is what it is.

 

[Beave]

Look inside some of the world's top recording studios. That doesn't mean they're good speakers objectively.

That's a picture inside Deutsche Grammophon's studio in Berlin.

Is that a recent picture? Because the speaker models shown are from the 1990s and early 2000s.

What's more, those models are from back when B&W speakers used to be somewhat neutral.

Those days are long gone, as each successive update to the lineup has gotten more and more colored.

 

[Brennan Huff]

Is that a recent picture? Because the speaker models shown are from the 1990s and early 2000s.

What's more, those models are from back when B&W speakers used to be somewhat neutral.

Those days are long gone, as each successive update to the lineup has gotten more and more colored.

Gemini (so take it for what its worth) says thats from their studio that opened in 2010... and was shared in December 2019 as part of their "10 years in Berlin anniversary" internet posts.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Is that a recent picture? Because the speaker models shown are from the 1990s and early 2000s.

What's more, those models are from back when B&W speakers used to be somewhat neutral.

Those days are long gone, as each successive update to the lineup has gotten more and more colored.

The photo is from 2024. They are using them to produce the new releases as we speak. In the room behind the glass some of the world's most famous classical musicians are recorded for studio albums every year.

 

[DavidM1]

I am above all irritated by all the “authority” claims in the opening post.

Not so much an authority claim, rather I was pointing out the anomaly of a speaker brand having a better level of acceptance in classical music studios than comments here and on Erin's site would suggest likely. I don't need to appeal to authority to support my view. It is what it is and I really don't mind who else accepts it. However, it is interesting, is it not, that this brand gets so little coverage here and it does suggest that the accepted FR linearity here might not be the whole story.