Oops! Not fatigued by B&W speakers

[RexrothPigeon]

I see the same chasing, over and over again, for new gear and speakers going on here on this forum, and actually even more of that here on ASR than on any other audio forum I’ve visited. The only difference here is that you could change out the bolded part in your text to objective reviewers for other forums.

I don't know what you see (I don't see that), but for me, there was no chasing once I discovered ASR and learned how the measurements work: I made an effort to audition performant speakers in my budget: Genelecs, Ascilabs, and Dutch & Dutch 8Cs and settled on the D&Ds.
And for electronics it's even more plain to see. Thanks to Amir's measurements, we know that performant amps and DACs are perfected to a level beyond even the most sensitive human hearing, so the only questions left are impedance-matching/functionality/looks/price/availability/durability. ASR changed the game and it can never change back.

 

[goat76]

The old Kodachrome vs. Ektachrome argument. You're free to use whichever one you wish.



I know that you said you have synesthesia, but the vast majority of us don't.
You have the freedom to satisfy yourself. OTOH, don't I (or we) have the same freedom? If I want to hear what's on the recording, don't I have that right? People come to ASR complaining that they feel put-upon by those of us who advocate accuracy. Aren't we who desire accuracy then put-upon by those who belittle us, denigrate us and argue with us as The Enemy?
No matter how many rhetorical questions that you might ask, we are not required to explain ourselves to you .... or anyone else. Despite that, you'll notice that we usually do explain ourselves ... over and over and over again, patiently and tolerantly. What do we get for it? More argument, more vituperation, more insults and more trolling. After so many years, it gets sickening.

You need to remember that the reason so many people who advocate objective principles are here at ASR is because it is one of the very few sites on the web where we can find shelter .... one of the very few havens of sanity. On so many of the audio sites on the web, we are constantly attacked by predatory ragebaiters and fanatical subjectivists, so much so that we leave in disgust ... or at least I did.

Then I found ASR. A breath of clean, fresh air in a vast internet polluted by voodoo, superstition and the tyranny of ignorance. I love it here. I can relax here, enjoy the membership of like-minded people here.
Don't we have the right to our own peace and quiet? You laud your own ideas ... don't we have the right to laud our own, too? Don't we have the right to everything that you have the right to? Don't we have the right to congregate with people who understand our language, who feel the way we feel, and who share our value system?

Why don't you just leave us alone? If you want to push your subjectivist agenda, do it elsewhere.

Nice speech, but what I think you fail to see is that there is a gray zone to everything.

What @MattHooper is clear about is that his goal is also a neutral reproduction, but that there’s a window within that approach that leaves room for some subjective impression of what sounds more convincing and real when it comes to reproduction of the sound of different instruments.

We are all here for the accurate measurements and neutral reproduction, and I’m sure that includes Matt as well.

 

[goat76]

I know why I would consider it. It is the version the artist approved at the time, although with some music labels at certain times that may not mean much (hello Motown).

I personally look at it as a Venn diagram. Was the original recording any good, as in does it sound good? Does it sound realistic or artificially boosted in any way? Does it make me feel like everything is there?

Let's not fool ourselves: we shall never establish how "accurate" a recording is. If the cowbell is recorded on its own... Bruce Wilkinson (?) wouldn't have asked for as many retakes..

Answering the bolded part:

We don’t know what the artists heard in the studio control room, they didn't listen to the “naked” signal, they listened to their music through a pair of loudspeakers, which we have not much clue about if they produced the signal accurately or not.

What we can hope for is that the studio sound system the artists listened to was at least in the ballpark of being accurate, and about in a similar neutral window as we here on ASR are aiming for.
There is a gray zone here.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

yeah, that stuff's unknowable, completely unknowable

 

[sigbergaudio]

I know why I would consider it. It is the version the artist approved at the time, although with some music labels at certain times that may not mean much (hello Motown).

Slight tangent on the discussion, but I think this is a slightly romanticized version of how this actually works. If you're Metallica or maybe Lady Gaga (random examples), I'm sure you're demanding to hear and scrutinize the final master.

For most artists, recording your music is an expensive and not very lucurative business. The final mastering is often not done at the same time or even the same place as the recording. The master may go back and forth a bit between the mastering engineer and the mixing engineer / producer, but likely not the artist.

 

[Waxx]

Slight tangent on the discussion, but I think this is a slightly romanticized version of how this actually works. If you're Metallica or maybe Lady Gaga (random examples), I'm sure you're demanding to hear and scrutinize the final master.

For most artists, recording your music is an expensive and not very lucurative business. The final mastering is often not done at the same time or even the same place as the recording. The master may go back and forth a bit between the mastering engineer and the mixing engineer / producer, but likely not the artist.

It all depends, today the artist is very often also the one who manage the whole process and deliver the final product to the label. Certainly with less mainstream artists that is the case. Labels don't invest in own studio's or productions, they buy the final product from the artist if they like it. The time that labels had studio's or hired studio's for the artists are long gone. Nowadays you need to come with a finished or almost finished product to have a record deal as artist. And many even skip the labels, and release it themselves (as internet made it a lot easier, certainly for more underground or niche genres. Many of the artists of today that i listen to have no record deal, they release the music themselves, even on vinyl and at best have a distribution deal to get those out in the shops without having to do it themselves. Digital releases you can easely do yourself and Bandcamp plays a big role in that.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It all depends, today the artist is very often also the one who manage the whole process and deliver the final product to the label. Certainly with less mainstream artists that is the case. Labels don't invest in own studio's or productions, they buy the final product from the artist if they like it. The time that labels had studio's or hired studio's for the artists are long gone. Nowadays you need to come with a finished or almost finished product to have a record deal as artist.

That doesn't necessarily change what I said. Even though the artist hire the studio directly, they don't necessarily manage the whole process. Many studios (and recording engineers) may do the recording and mixing, but not necessarily the mastering. That is sent away and done for a fixed fee - and doesn't include endless back and forth. But the artists do of course listen to the mix in the studio, so I'm not saying they're totally removed from the process.

 

[Mort]

Why don't you just leave us alone? If you want to push your subjectivist agenda, do it elsewhere.

Or do like I do and ignore.

 

[Sernyl]

It's a bad academic paper.

However, a systematic study of the more accomplished (and therefore busier) classical musicians would no doubt indicate those with a few years of experience or more tend to have severely compromised hearing. A quick chat with musicians from a major orchestra would leave one with no doubt about this. It is such common knowledge among musicians that it is not even worth the effort of doing a study. This epidemic of hearing loss was widely known when I studied to be an orchestral musician 20+ years ago.

Of course.
I've read some ENT books about that, and screens (e.g. perspex) are visible on concert videos.
I only reacted to the sentence "classical musicians almost invariably suffer from hearing damage".
I thought the article and its title were too restrictive to classical.
I was used to read scientific & medical articles : this one brings nothing that's already known.

A curious anecdote : my audiogram shows a narrow notch at 500 Hz :
I made a link with my long time listening to narrow-band HF telegraphy in noisy signals : all the acoustic energy concentrated by the IF and AF narrow filters almost destroyed the involved cells in the cochlea :-(

 

[goat76]

Yes. It’s natural to want to justify our own approach to buying gear, but it doesn’t seem we have actual data to suggest that audiophiles buying neutral gear have more satisfaction, or have longer lasting satisfaction or retain their gear longer.

In some other ASR thread about this, I posted a link to a Steve Hoffman forum poll asking how long people had owned their loudspeakers, and there were plenty of members who owned their loudspeakers for quite a long time. And there wasn’t any particular rhyme or a reason in terms of which speakers were providing that lasting satisfaction for individuals.
As Toole points out: we are very good at adapting to colorations.

It seems to be a long-standing myth, often repeated, that subjective audiophiles change their loudspeakers very often. The reason for that is usually stated to be that when the choice is based on other things than objective measurements, it quickly wears off when the "honeymoon" is over. That thread you linked to from the Steve Hoffman forum shows the opposite, that the general audiophile usually keeps their speakers for quite some time.

As mentioned, I actually see way more hype and anticipation going on here on ASR for new gear and speakers than what I see on most other non-brand-specific audio sites.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't know what you see (I don't see that), but for me, there was no chasing once I discovered ASR and learned how the measurements work: I made an effort to audition performant speakers in my budget: Genelecs, Ascilabs, and Dutch & Dutch 8Cs and settled on the D&Ds.
And for electronics it's even more plain to see. Thanks to Amir's measurements, we know that performant amps and DACs are perfected to a level beyond even the most sensitive human hearing, so the only questions left are impedance-matching/functionality/looks/price/availability/durability. ASR changed the game and it can never change back.

Agreed!

Shortly after I first joined I got rid of an Uptone ISO Regen based on the ASR review showing that it did nothing.

I think that was one of the only goofy tweaks I ever bought, on the grounds of “ it can’t hurt to make sure the digital signal is clean in my cluttered cable set up,.” But upon reading the ASR review, I sold it even before I opened the box.

(ironically, the person who sold it to reported that it didn’t work at all even new out of the box, that he couldn’t get a signal, so I had to return his money).

I also bought my Benchmark LA4 preamplifier largely on the ASR review measurements (and the Stereophile measurements). I understood I could’ve found any number of objectively/subjectively transparent preamplifiers, but the ASR data gave me great confidence I’d be getting excellent performance along with the features I wanted, as well as the pleasure of owning a piece of gear that is so well engineered.

My next solid state amplifier is going to be a Topping Mini 300 …again… based on the ASR review.

And since I like to see high-quality measurements for loudspeakers when available, I get quite excited when Amir gets a hold of loudspeakers that I’m fascinated with. Loved his review and measurements of the Grimm Audio LS1c!

Amir’s video channel evaluating gear and especially educating about bogus
Technical claims made for some types of gear, is one of the best things to happen in the audiophile world. Honestly, it’s like the type of YouTube audio channel I had always wanted to see.

I also enjoy reading about and discussing blind tests on ASR. From what I can tell, I have done more blind testing of my equipment (and written about it here) over the years than the average ASR member.

But there I go, letting slip my objectivist leanings… I need to pull back and stay on message with my Evil Subjectivist Agenda …

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Agreed!

Shortly after I first joined I got rid of an Uptone ISO Regen based on the ASR review showing that it did nothing.

I think that was one of the only goofy tweaks I ever bought, on the grounds of “ it can’t hurt to make sure the digital signal is clean in my cluttered cable set up,.” But upon reading the ASR review, I sold it even before I opened the box.

(ironically, the person who sold it to reported that it didn’t work at all even new out of the box, that he couldn’t get a signal, so I had to return his money).

I also bought my Benchmark LA4 preamplifier largely on the ASR review measurements (and the Stereophile measurements). I understood I could’ve found any number of objectively/subjectively transparent preamplifiers, but the ASR data gave me great confidence I’d be getting excellent performance along with the features I wanted, as well as the pleasure of owning a piece of gear that is so well engineered.

My next solid state amplifier is going to be a Topping Mini 300 …again… based on the ASR review.

And since I like to see high-quality measurements for loudspeakers when available, I get quite excited when Amir gets a hold of loudspeakers that I’m fascinated with. Loved his review and measurements of the Grimm Audio LS1c!

Amir’s video channel evaluating gear and especially educating about bogus
Technical claims made for some types of gear, is one of the best things to happen in the audiophile world. Honestly, it’s like the type of YouTube audio channel I had always wanted to see.

I also enjoy reading about and discussing blind tests on ASR. From what I can tell, I have done more blind testing of my equipment (and written about it here) over the years than the average ASR member.

But there I go, letting slip my objectivist leanings… I need to pull back and stay on message with my Evil Subjectivist Agenda …

The day will really be when you finally convert from passive speakers to active speakers.

 

[MattHooper]

The day will really be when you finally convert from passive speakers to active speakers.

Negative. You’d have to pull my tube amps from my cold, dead hands.

 

[sergeauckland]

Negative. You’d have to pull my tube amps from my cold, dead hands.

No reason you can't have active 'speakers with tube amps. Just need a few of them...it'll keep you warm in winter!

S

 

[MattHooper]

No reason you can't have active 'speakers with tube amps. Just need a few of them...it'll keep you warm in winter!

S

Yes, I know. But as we know, that’s not what most people mean here when referencing active speakers.

In fact an idiosyncratic high audio store owner once insisted on demoing his reference system to me in his apartment behind the store. He had floorstanding speakers, tri-amplified (so a total of six single ended tube amplifiers as I recall).
It also happened to be a heat wave, and he refused to put on the air-conditioning - lest I miss out on the “black background” of the system. I honestly almost fainted from the heat at one point and had to end up leaving.

Not an experience I want to repeat in my home :- )

(my tube amps are in a separate room from my speakers, so I never have to worry about heat)

 

[sigbergaudio]

I totally get the allure and romance of tube amps, and many are reasonably transparent, and/or adds a pleasant coloration.

I did however vist a recent customer who insisted on keeping his tube preamp. He had a streamer in front of it that had the option of controlling the volume as well, so I convinced him to bypass the tube preamp just to test. After listening to a few songs he went "Okay, I guess I won't need that anymore".

I'm sure there was some bias (pun intended) involved, but the difference in sound was the classical "lifting a veil", cleaner and clearer. As I said to him, I've already tuned the speaker to sound right, so personally I wouldn't recommend additional coloring.

 

[MattHooper]

I totally get the allure and romance of tube amps, and many are reasonably transparent, and/or adds a pleasant coloration.

I did however vist a recent customer who insisted on keeping his tube preamp. He had a streamer in front of it that had the option of controlling the volume as well, so I convinced him to bypass the tube preamp just to test. After listening to a few songs he went "Okay, I guess I won't need that anymore".

I'm sure there was some bias (pun intended) involved, but the difference in sound was the classical "lifting a veil", cleaner and clearer. As I said to him, I've already tuned the speaker to sound right, so personally I wouldn't recommend additional coloring.

Oh I certainly recognizing that experience.

I’ve used various tube preamps down the years, but also tried a passive preamps way back in the day, and also had DACs from early on that came with volume control, which allowed me to bypass my tube pre (eg Mietner’s Museatex Bidat DAC that came with a wonderful remote volume knob, as well as my Benchmark DAC2L) .

And every time I heard that “veil drop away” I had the same feeling your customer did “ well this is obviously better!” But after a while when I put the tube pre-back in, it added that richness and density that I couldn’t do without.

I still get this experience all the time, because I use both a Benchmark LA4 pre and my CJ Premier 16LS2 tube pre . The Benchmark is effectively “ a straight wire with gain” in terms of Sonic transparency, and allows me to run my CJ tube pre through one of the inputs, adjusted for proper gain. This way I can switch back-and-forth between the pure signal from my DAC or turntable through the benchmark, or the signal going through my CJ, at the press of remote button from my listening seat.

I have lots of fun comparing them. And every time I switch from one to the other, I appreciate what each brings. Boy that Benchmark is transparent!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Oh I certainly recognizing that experience.

I’ve used various tube preamps down the years, but also tried a passive preamps way back in the day, and also had DACs from early on that came with volume control, which allowed me to bypass my tube pre (eg Mietner’s Museatex Bidat DAC that came with a wonderful remote volume knob, as well as my Benchmark DAC2L) .

And every time I heard that “veil drop away” I had the same feeling your customer did “ well this is obviously better!” But after a while when I put the tube pre-back in, it added that richness and density that I couldn’t do without.

I still get this experience all the time, because I use both a Benchmark LA4 pre and my CJ Premier 16LS2 tube pre . The Benchmark is effectively “ a straight wire with gain” in terms of Sonic transparency, and allows me to run my CJ tube pre through one of the inputs, adjusted for proper gain. This way I can switch back-and-forth between the pure signal from my DAC or turntable through the benchmark, or the signal going through my CJ, at the press of remote button from my listening seat.

I have lots of fun comparing them. And every time I switch from one to the other, I appreciate what each brings. Boy that Benchmark is transparent!

Yep, I have a Benchmark DAC3 here (actually two), like their gear and philosophy.

 

[MattHooper]

As I said to him, I've already tuned the speaker to sound right, so personally I wouldn't recommend additional coloring.

This reminds me of two experiences:

1. When I reviewed the Waveform Mach Solo speakers that I just mentioned in this thread.
Waveform’s John Otvos was extremely disparaging of high end audio bs around expensive cables and the belief that expensive solid state amplifiers sounded “better” and all that. (Always keen to demonstrate this, he demoed his speakers to me with cheap off the shelf cables, and Kenwood amps, and the sound blew away most other more expensive loudspeakers). And he was very much “tubes are for boobs” - that tube amplifiers had no place in modern hi-fi. He insisted I use solid state amplification with his speakers.

After the review, he came to pick up his speakers and he noted with horror that the speakers were hooked up to tiny zero feedback (IIRC) tube monos. They definitely coloured the sound . I assured him I used a beefy Bryston amplifier for the vast majority of the review, but had to try his speakers on this because I’m a tube guy.
I managed to get him to sit down for a listen to a couple of tracks and afterwards he turned to me with an honest expression of bewilderment and amazement at how good it sounded. “Now THAT is the definition of a high-quality stereo sound experience!” he said. It’s not like I convinced him to become a tube aficionado , but it was fun seeing a little cog turn in his head that his speakers could sound that could still with goofy tube amps.

2. The speaker designer visiting the customer, reminds me of the most awkward audition I ever had. (and this is not by the way a reflection on your customers experience, of course). A local high-end store owner was friends with a local ascending speaker designer, who was getting some terrific reviews in the mags with those triamped floor standers I mentioned. I was curious about his new stand mounted speaker so the store owner said he would drop them over to my place so I could give them a listen.
But that night he showed up with the speaker designer as well!
And they told me they wouldn’t be able to leave the speakers with me, but they could hang out while I auditioned them in my system.
Worse… this was in my living room, which was my listening room as well which had a conversational seating set up - speakers replaced to the sides of two conversation chairs.
There wasn’t enough room on the listening seat for all of us, so the speaker designer ended up sitting in a chair next to one loudspeaker, facing me.
So there I am trying to relax and get into the music - get a sense of whether I liked these loudspeakers enough to spend a lot of money on them, while at the same time the speaker designer is staring at me from between the loudspeakers, monitoring my reactions over “his new babies.” Talk about uncomfortable. Even worse: I didn’t like them! And I had to tell the store owner and the speaker designer right to their face what I didn’t like and why I wasn’t going to buy them. They understood but nonetheless left somewhat dejected.
An uncomfortable experience all around.

 

[sigbergaudio]

2. The speaker designer visiting the customer, reminds me of the most awkward audition I ever had. (and this is not by the way a reflection on your customers experience, of course). A local high-end store owner was friends with a local ascending speaker designer, who was getting some terrific reviews in the mags with those triamped floor standers I mentioned. I was curious about his new stand mounted speaker so the store owner said he would drop them over to my place so I could give them a listen.
But that night he showed up with the speaker designer as well!
And they told me they wouldn’t be able to leave the speakers with me, but they could hang out while I auditioned them in my system.
Worse… this was in my living room, which was my listening room as well which had a conversational seating set up - speakers replaced to the sides of two conversation chairs.
There wasn’t enough room on the listening seat for all of us, so the speaker designer ended up sitting in a chair next to one loudspeaker, facing me.
So there I am trying to relax and get into the music - get a sense of whether I liked these loudspeakers enough to spend a lot of money on them, while at the same time the speaker designer is staring at me from between the loudspeakers, monitoring my reactions over “his new babies.” Talk about uncomfortable. Even worse: I didn’t like them! And I had to tell the store owner and the speaker designer right to their face what I didn’t like and why I wasn’t going to buy them. They understood but nonetheless left somewhat dejected.
An uncomfortable experience all around.

Haha. In this instance the customer had already visited me to listen here. And the situation I shared was when setting it up as his place after he had decided to test it out, which he was subsequently allowed to do for a few weeks without me looking over his shoulder.