Oops! Not fatigued by B&W speakers

[krabapple]

I expect this is true but for those interested in objective measurements there is an obvious gap. Erin’s comments and several on ASR are critical of the B&W sound. Perhaps this is a preference born of exposure to the accepted downward tilting frequency response?

You are confusing in-room response at the MLP, where a 'downward tilt' is often the preferences, with loudspeaker performance in anaechoic/Klippel conditions, where 'good' means (among other things) flat and horizontal on-axis frequency response

 

[krabapple]

Respectfully, those folks are not relevant. I am referring to well equipped recording studios for classical music.

ASR is a fabulous place and it is easy to see what would constitute a high fidelity system for most components. However, the B&W sound might not measure as acceptably here as other speakers but has a good level of professional regard. Curious.

Famously or infamously, a lot of production suites back in the day used Yamaha NS10s supplemented with Auratone cubes.

 

[krabapple]

I asked AI:

And I scrolled past

 

[krabapple]

I find it interesting that we seem to get rather hung up on needing a ruler flat frequency response when every studio nowadays will be EQing their monitors anyway

If they are using 'ruler flat' speakers, then they do that to compensate for room-produced coloration.

 

[krabapple]

What is interesting to me is that hanging the reputation of B&W monitoring devices on Deutche Grammophon's use of them may be counter-productive. The reputation of Deutche Grammophone recordings is, according to many classical music fans, somewhat spotty.

Thank you!

Let's take one famous example: the Carlos Kleiber/Vienna Phil Beethoven 5th on DG. A terrific, standard-setting performance... the 1974 recording itself, not quite.

It's still my go-to, though.

 

[Redacted]

Substitute either the word "denying" or "disputing" for "gainsaying" and I think the statement is clearer. "Gainsaying" is a more or less archaic usage. The basic sense is that no one can control your inmost likes and dislikes, even if they were to try.

Aha - it meant nay-saying for those of us surviving the English Civil War, yeah?

 

[JPA]

I remember quite vividly visiting a studio 30 years ago (Smart Studios, in Madison, Wisconsin) where a friend was cutting some tracks.

The studio had three pairs of speakers:

B&W 801 Nautilus
Yamaha NS-1000
Acrosonics, who knows the model

Of course, I had to ask the engineer what was going on with three very different pairs of speakers.

The answer was simple:

"Almost everything sounds good on the Nautilus. Very little I have to do to the signal.

Then I switch to the Yamahas. More work required to get a good sound there.

Then I switch to the Acrosonics. That's the acid test. It's much harder to get a good sound from them. But when I do, I stop."

I never forgot that progression of speakers, and it made me realize just how difficult it is to engineer the sound so it can shine on all platforms.

I wonder if the engineer then went back to the B&W and Yamaha speakers to make sure the recordings still sounded good on them.

 

[DavidM1]

If you were a new member, the comment would make some sense. You have been here too long to not expect the response. Look at the ATC thread that is over 300 pages long!

I think I’ll simply block this thread. My original question was fairly well answered within the first couple of pages: Erin and Amir test what they are sent, B&W’s reputation has suffered due to changes since about 2005, most studios have shifted to powered speakers, folks here assume most of what they don’t like is a result of someone else’s marketing, there is little tolerance for preference in speakers if there is a measurable standard to be defended.

If you spend 10 minutes on ASR, you will see that gear that is both $ and does not objectively perform well will get a hard rejection on ASR. That often does come accross as "...arrogant and dismissive" but that's ASR.

Yeah, nah. A site with scientific values is at its best without all that.

 

[Dialectic]

I loooove my B&W 805 matrix speakers - they are at least 30 years old but still sounds just great in my little listening room.

View attachment 532305

Sweet. Known to be better than the new ones.

 

[Paul7777x]

I think I’ll simply block this thread. My original question was fairly well answered within the first couple of pages: Erin and Amir test what they are sent, B&W’s reputation has suffered due to changes since about 2005, most studios have shifted to powered speakers, folks here assume most of what they don’t like is a result of someone else’s marketing, there is little tolerance for preference in speakers if there is a measurable standard to be defended.



Yeah, nah. A site with scientific values is at its best without all that.

All I can read from your posts is that you’re offended hardly anyone likes your speakers. Really.

Whatever you’ve said or quoted all seems triggered by your need to be validated.

Good luck.

 

[Daverz]

I think I’ll simply block this thread. My original question was fairly well answered within the first couple of pages: Erin and Amir test what they are sent, B&W’s reputation has suffered due to changes since about 2005, most studios have shifted to powered speakers, folks here assume most of what they don’t like is a result of someone else’s marketing, there is little tolerance for preference in speakers if there is a measurable standard to be defended.



Yeah, nah. A site with scientific values is at its best without all that.

I still have a bruised ego over Amir's review of the original Buchardt S400, particularly Amir's subjective "meh" response, so I understand where you're coming from. At some point I decided that they were good enough for my purposes, and that I can't justify a new purchase.

But asking people to set aside a "measurable standard" because of a personal preference does not seem reasonable. And some of us do have experience with B&W speakers or have owned them. I hope that B&W finds its way back to technical excellence some day.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Or is this just an excellent example of internet group think?

In a nut shell, it is about right, ASR is not immune, the echo chamber has their favourite.
Nothing wrong with many choices of speakers, which as opposed to electronic all have a signature sound and speaker performance are dependent on what room, where in they sit in the room and where the listener sit in the room.
Back in the days, when I spent time at friends house just to listen to music on our respective sound system/music room, I have found memory of a pair of B&W CM2.

 

[Mort]

Yeah, nah. A site with scientific values is at its best without all that.

It's an onion headline.

"Free site on the Internet doesn't meet someone's expectations"

 

[Chrispy]

This phenomenon is caused primarily by microphone placement, especially with respect to string instruments.

That's some comparison...comparing a live experience to a reproduced on in a completely different space. Not much to equate there outside of your imagination.

 

[Dialectic]

In which case you are mistaken. Perhaps you have to go through the process to understand the level of time and commitment that goes into becoming an elite classical musician. We are talking hours a day in the pre-tertiary and tertiary training years, including soaking up relevant live performances and masterclasses at every opportunity. My undergraduate music school also included the city’s main concert hall and there was a blanket policy of allowing performance students free access to all concerts where seats were available. Many players continue to have easy access to concerts when they aren’t on stage themselves. Many professional musicians also teach in university music schools and serve on juries for competitions and exams, and then there is the most obvious point - classical musicians are music lovers. They are not dilettantes and they have highly developed critical listening skills.

It is bizarre to think of classical musicians as inexperienced audience members. I think I’m still in shock. Lol!

Oh my goodness.

I've known with varying degrees of intimacy dozens of "elite" classical musicians - these are members of "Big Five" or other "major" orchestras, or people who made careers as soloists. None of those people say things like this! Some of them do not enjoy going to concerts. One of them, then a member of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, bragged that she does not even enjoy listening to classical music! (She enjoys the process and fun of playing.)

Classical music does take over the elite musician's life - in terms of practice. Stories of not missing a day of practice in periods of 10-20 years are common. (I have nevertheless known a few preeminent musicians who don't practice very much! Natural talent matters.)

I have been in lots of their homes, too. I have seen excellent stereos there, although I've eyed a few competent ones and a couple audiophile voodoo systems. Lots of Bose Wave Radios.

 

[Chrispy]

Oh my goodness.

I've known with varying degrees of intimacy dozens of "elite" classical musicians - these are members of "Big Five" or other "major" orchestras, or people who made careers as soloists. None of those people say things like this! Some of them do not enjoy going to concerts. One of them, then a member of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, bragged that she does not even enjoy listening to classical music! (She just enjoys the process and fun of playing.)

Classical music does take over your life, but more in terms of practice than in other forms of immersion. Stories of not missing a day of practice in periods of 10-20 years are common. (I have nevertheless known a few preeminent musicians who don't practice very much! Natural talent matters.)

I can only imagine the sacrifice and dedication most classical musicians provide the community. Slave labor all too often IMHO.

 

[Dialectic]

I can only imagine the sacrifice and dedication most classical musicians provide the community. Slave labor all too often IMHO.

Yep. Mostly a brutal profession. I know many who, even in their 40s, work second jobs at restaurants and warehouses.

But it's a lot more fun than finance, law, or consulting.

 

[Chrispy]

Yep. Mostly a brutal profession. I know many who, even in their 40s, work second jobs at restaurants and warehouses.

But it's a lot more fun than finance, law, or consulting.

I sure as hell hope there's a personal payoff in there! Spending more than paid time for those other mentions, perhaps, but at full pay....

 

[Jim Taylor]

In which case you are mistaken. Perhaps you have to go through the process to understand the level of time and commitment that goes into becoming an elite classical musician. We are talking hours a day in the pre-tertiary and tertiary training years, including soaking up relevant live performances and masterclasses at every opportunity. My undergraduate music school also included the city’s main concert hall and there was a blanket policy of allowing performance students free access to all concerts where seats were available. Many players continue to have easy access to concerts when they aren’t on stage themselves. Many professional musicians also teach in university music schools and serve on juries for competitions and exams, and then there is the most obvious point - classical musicians are music lovers. They are not dilettantes and they have highly developed critical listening skills.

It is bizarre to think of classical musicians as inexperienced audience members. I think I’m still in shock. Lol!

Oh my goodness.

I've known with varying degrees of intimacy dozens of "elite" classical musicians - these are members of "Big Five" or other "major" orchestras, or people who made careers as soloists. None of those people say things like this! Some of them do not enjoy going to concerts. One of them, then a member of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, bragged that she does not even enjoy listening to classical music! (She just enjoys the process and fun of playing.)

Classical music does take over your life, but more in terms of practice than in other forms of immersion. Stories of not missing a day of practice in periods of 10-20 years are common. (I have nevertheless known a few preeminent musicians who don't practice very much! Natural talent matters.)

Been in lots of their homes, too. Zero excellent stereos, although a few competent ones and a couple audiophile voodoo systems. Lots of Bose Wave Radios.

Okay .... I've got a problem here. Each of you two has a testimony contradicting the other. Because each of you is quite adamant and sounds sincere, I don't know what the hell to think.
The post by @DavidM1 sounds utterly believable, while the post by @Dialectic is more in line with my experience.

Both of you are talking about the "elite" level musicians, of which I know practically nothing. My experience was with college/university and small-town orchestras.

So I don't know who to believe.

 

[Beave]

Since they're both anecdotal, both can be true. It tells us very little.