Onkyo TX-RZ50 warning about Dirac Live

[Sounderista]

It’s not an EQ, it’s room correction. I hate to say it, but I think you’re in over your head.

You could've fooled me. It has something that resembled a parametric EQ quite a lot.

 

[CapMan]

But the key instrument is the drum set, because you set up any amp or receiver to a point where the drum kit sounds good,

A drum set live in a room is likely not to sound like a recorded drum set for many reasons - use of compression, gating and EQ at the mixing desk .. ditto a drum set recorded in the 70s with tea towels over all the heads will not sound like a wide open jazz kit from the 50s - or Bonham's Ludwig for that matter ..

Just not convinced this is a meaningful or reproducible benchmark ...

PS - I am a drummer

 

[Sounderista]

I called it in post #4.

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're stuck in the past and would rather stick to legacy equipment (which is fine as you like what you like).

Quite the contrary. I'm stuck in the idea of getting the best sound quality of the equipment I have. Sure, the fact that I grew up listening to music on a Sansui (even if it was the cheapest receiver they made or close to it), might make my ears a bit biased, but like I said, I try to EQ everything so it sounds as close as possible to reality, and maybe a little softer, but still based on reality, meaning, how a drum set sounds in real life.

But I'm more than happy to embrace the current Hi-Fi gear when it comes to the other advantages, like remote control for all functions, HDMI switching, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and so on, and that includes the "fake" Dolby Atmos that receivers these days create for stereo content, or even the All Channel Stereo listening mode, both of which are great. I mean, going from listening music in just two speakers in the Sansui to 7.1 years ago was great, and it got better when I got the Pioneer VSX-935, and now even better with the Onkyo RZ50 and my custom Dirac Live curve, which is finally like having the Sansui but in 7.1 speakers. It's a blast, and I wish I was much younger to have many decades left to enjoy it.

The fact that you couldn't be bothered to answer my bass management question means you're confirming what everyone's already thinking.

It's not that I couldn't be bothered, I simply forgot. So the answer is, I tried both, and settled for the one that allows me to control the subwoofer gain from the remote control, because it's ridiculous to lose control of that these days when there's so much content recorded in the last 5 decades, and each decade adds more bass to them. '80s music is very lacking in bass, '90s is better, 2000s is OK, and 2010s goes to overblown bass, especially sub bass. So you need to control the subwoofer level very often, which is why it pisses me off that the same people designed the Pioneer and Onkyo remote controls, and the Pioneer was designed so the subwoofer level is one button press away, while the Onkyo, having the exact buttons and almost identical layout, makes you go through menus to access it.

Holding a mic with your hand? There's a reason why most people use a boom mic stand these days to do a proper room correction.

Well, it was just a test, an idea I had and what's wrong with testing ideas? Many great things come from thinking outside the box. And I don't have a boom mic stand, and I certainly won't buy one just for this. Perhaps I would if the DL app gave me real distances, but just by seeing a silhouette of a man sitting on a chair, viewed from the front, which I can't even rotate in 3D, what more could I accomplish with a boom stand. The first time I used a small tripod, but since I don't watch movies from a chair, but sitting on the bed, it was a wild guess at best.

1) Make sure your RZ50 has the latest firmware.
2) Make sure you are running the latest version of Dirac.

Yes on both. I'm one of those people that as soon as they hook up any new electronic equipment doesn't bother playing any music or watching anything at first, but goes straight to the settings and makes everything to his taste before anything comes out of the speakers or shown on the screen. Of course, that includes firmware updates, and the DL version I have is from a weeks ago when I got the RZ50. I'll check just in case there's a new one.

3) The puck mic included w/your AVR only works connected to the AVR for Dirac. If you want to use a mic w/your Macbook or any other laptop, you need to purchase a UMIK1.

Sorry, I didn't think that it was necessary to clarify that since I mentioned that I used the "puck" mic that came with the Onkyo. It would be weird to connect that to my Macbook Air, I would need an adapter from 3.5mm to USB, and what would be the point? The way to use the included mic is by connecting to the Onkyo. The UMK1 costs $128. The only way I would spend so much on something to use once would be if I had a real home theater, meaning a room solely for that purpose with the proper sound treatment, like people with a lot more money than me do. I almost bought a house with one, but the house was too expensive and poorly located for my needs.

4) Get at least a tripod or some stable device to position the mic for the different locations. Measurements for the "tight" approach should be no more than 8" apart from the Main Listening Position (MLP).

The difficult part there is that the main listening position is sitting on a bed against the backboard, with a hard backrest. It's not an easy place to position the tripod in all these different positions. One listening position, sure, but like the 9 that requires? That's harder than it sounds.

5) Go to this website and follow the instructions to calibrate your speakers. Not doing this properly will cause incorrect measurements. Note that Dirac settings won't be reflected in AccuEQ and vice versa.
Configure microphone and setting speaker levels for measurements in Dirac Live v2 & v3

That I will do, and thanks for the link and the advice.

Your time and my time is precious. Let's do it the proper way and maybe we can get somewhere.

Absolutely, and I don't want to waste anyone's time. My purpose for posting all these findings is in case someone is utterly confused like I was yesterday when I realized that the EQ curve that you see on the DL app is just one curve, and that the measurement itself adds another curve that you cannot see or edit. That was very clear to me from the tests I did yesterday compared to the first tests a few weeks ago. So the curve that I posted the screenshot of in my first post, may sound amazing or may sound like royal crap depending on your measurement. I don't even know if perhaps it's because I did the first measurement on my PC with just 5 positions and I did the one yesterday on my Macbook Air (just to be clear, both times using the puck mic connected to the Onkyo). Perhaps either the Windows app or the macOS app has a bug and yields vastly different results. Or perhaps it's because of testing the bare minimum 5 instead of 9 points. And it could be the fact that I was holding the mic myself. So as soon as I get a chance today, I will do the test again with the tripod and all 9 points.

But one thing that is clear to me, the first test, the one I did from the Windows app, is much more faithful to reality than the one yesterday in terms of results. Because what I was hearing yesterday after the test and a curve very similar to the one in my first post, was something that would be a flat curve but with a spike around 4-5 Khz at +15 dB. It was downright ear piercing. It doesn't resemble at all what I would get with the curve I posted, if that was the only EQ done.

 

[Sounderista]

A drum set live in a room is likely not to sound like a recorded drum set for many reasons - use of compression, gating and EQ at the mixing desk .. ditto a drum set recorded in the 70s with tea towels over all the heads will not sound like a wide open jazz kit from the 50s - or Bonham's Ludwig for that matter ..

Just not convinced this is a meaningful or reproducible benchmark ...

PS - I am a drummer

Of course, a drum kit will not sound the same, but if you listened to one in different setups, like a small concert venue, a small rehearsal room, or a friend's studio, you have a good idea of what the different components should sound like. That's why I hate the usual '80s recording signature of the whiplash snare drum. I can't even begin to imagine who came up with a sound so horrible and 90% of rock and pop sound engineers at the time thought "Hey, that sounds great! Let's do it for all the albums!"

A good recording to test drums is the drum solo from the great move "The Life of Chuck" at around 44 minutes. That's not all I use, I own several virtual instruments, and many drum kits among them. Not synth based, but actual recorded drum kits, so it's easy for me to test that. Which is another reason that I think DL is not that great, because I'd much rather EQ sound based on real instruments and recorded music, than the Woooooooop noises. As cool as they sound, when I use the Onkyo, I'm not listening to woooooop sounds, I'm listening to music and movies.

 

[EWL5]

It's not that I couldn't be bothered, I simply forgot. So the answer is, I tried both, and settled for the one that allows me to control the subwoofer gain from the remote control, because it's ridiculous to lose control of that these days when there's so much content recorded in the last 5 decades, and each decade adds more bass to them. '80s music is very lacking in bass, '90s is better, 2000s is OK, and 2010s goes to overblown bass, especially sub bass. So you need to control the subwoofer level very often, which is why it pisses me off that the same people designed the Pioneer and Onkyo remote controls, and the Pioneer was designed so the subwoofer level is one button press away, while the Onkyo, having the exact buttons and almost identical layout, makes you go through menus to access it.

The problem is you actually don't have a choice of where to do bass management if you are using Dirac calibration (you technically do but hear me out):

1) If you perform bass management only on the RZ50, there is a disconnect where the crossover slope from the RZ50 is different from the crossover slope when using Dirac Live Bass Management (the proper way). This was commonly known as the subwoofer bug when the RZ50 came out in 2021 where the contribution from the SW was not aligned with the rest of the speakers. You can compensate but why do that when you can do #2?

2) If you perform bass management using the tab that says Dirac Live Bass Management, then you can physically adjust the crossover as you like and the proper slope is applied for the Dirac filter to be exported to the receiver. The option for the free Dirac Live Bass Management (as well as the additional license for Dirac Live Bass Control) only became available Fall of last year. This is why I asked about your Onkyo firmware.

So, if you want to continue doing things the right way for Dirac, here's the continuation of my step-by-step guidelines:

1) Make sure your RZ50 has the latest firmware.
2) Make sure you are running the latest version of Dirac.
3) The puck mic included w/your AVR only works connected to the AVR for Dirac. If you want to use a mic w/your Macbook or any other laptop, you need to purchase a UMIK1.
4) Get at least a tripod or some stable device to position the mic for the different locations. Measurements for the "tight" approach should be no more than 8" apart from the Main Listening Position (MLP).
5) Go to this website and follow the instructions to calibrate your speakers. Not doing this properly will cause incorrect measurements. Note that Dirac settings won't be reflected in AccuEQ and vice versa.
Configure microphone and setting speaker levels for measurements in Dirac Live v2 & v3
6) After speakers are level, you can import a target curve to an EQ of your liking. Many people prefer the Harman curve as it biases mid-bass and LFE and rolls off the highs. You can certainly give it a try or do your own EQ. There are some curves here if you scroll past halfway of the webpage:

Dirac Live v2 & v3

It is recommended to apply the same curve to all speakers but again, you do what you like or think your speakers are capable of.
7) After curves are applied, you hit Calculate and let Dirac do its thing.
8) Next, go to the Dirac Live Bass Management tab and select your crossover point. I don't recall if there's a calculate button but I would do it again if it shows.
9) Export the filter to your RZ50. You're done but note that any further manipulation outside of the Dirac environment is not allowed! Changing any settings on your RZ50 would invalidate all the work that was done to create the Dirac filter.

Any questions?

 

[Sounderista]

1) If you perform bass management only on the RZ50, there is a disconnect where the crossover slope from the RZ50 is different from the crossover slope when using Dirac Live Bass Management (the proper way).

OK but if doing bass management from the DL app doesn't allow me to control the subwoofer volume from the remote (of course I could get up and do it from the back of the subwoofer, but what's the point of having a remote control?), then it's of no use to me. Like I said, many different decades, many different bass levels.

8) Next, go to the Dirac Live Bass Management tab and select your crossover point. I don't recall if there's a calculate button but I would do it again if it shows.

Does that allow you to select the crossover that gets sent to the Onkyo? Because DL keeps insisting on setting the crossover to 70 Hz, when I want to set it to 80, because that's what Emotiva told me, and it makes sense for bookshelf speakers of that size. In fact, for most speakers that size I wouldn't set it below 100 Hz normally.

That said, like I said, if it doesn't let me control the subwoofer volume from the remote control, I'd rather do it without bass management. My memory sucks, but if I remember correctly, that is the case.

But I will definitely run the tests again this afternoon when my wife gets back from work and takes the dogs downstairs. Can't do any measurements with two dogs on the bed

 

[EWL5]

OK but if doing bass management from the DL app doesn't allow me to control the subwoofer volume from the remote (of course I could get up and do it from the back of the subwoofer, but what's the point of having a remote control?), then it's of no use to me. Like I said, many different decades, many different bass levels.

Does that allow you to select the crossover that gets sent to the Onkyo? Because DL keeps insisting on setting the crossover to 70 Hz, when I want to set it to 80, because that's what Emotiva told me, and it makes sense for bookshelf speakers of that size. In fact, for most speakers that size I wouldn't set it below 100 Hz normally.

That said, like I said, if it doesn't let me control the subwoofer volume from the remote control, I'd rather do it without bass management. My memory sucks, but if I remember correctly, that is the case.

But I will definitely run the tests again this afternoon when my wife gets back from work and takes the dogs downstairs. Can't do any measurements with two dogs on the bed

There's still a misunderstanding here. The SW volume or gain as it should be called should be adjusted once and never touched again, especially AFTER speaker calibration for the first link in my procedure. That speaker calibration is to match levels across the board. If you go about fiddling with the gain after calibration, you might as well not calibrate at all!

Dirac Live Bass Management's common starting point for the crossover is 70Hz (as it was for me). There's nothing stopping you from dragging the slider to 80Hz or any other value within the SW frequency curtains.

If you haven't learned by now, all the adjustments are made while in the Dirac environment (to your liking). If you don't like the sound after a proper Dirac calibration, then Dirac is not for you (a conclusion that nearly everyone in this thread is coming to). Dirac doesn't allow you to fiddle after the fact on the lower end units. My understanding is that Dirac on StormAudio is much more flexible post-calibration but you can buy a compact car with what they're asking for!

Edit: One final tip...if you like different EQ for different scenarios or situations, there's nothing stopping you from creating multiple filters and putting them into Onkyo's 3 Dirac slots (someone correct me if I'm wrong). That way, you can change the target curve accordingly, all without touching the gain on the SW. You would only need to repeat steps 6 to 9 for all other filters!

 

[Sounderista]

There's still a misunderstanding here. The SW volume or gain as it should be called should be adjusted once and never touched again, especially AFTER speaker calibration for the first link in my procedure. That speaker calibration is to match levels across the board. If you go about fiddling with the gain after calibration, you might as well not calibrate at all!

It's not a misunderstanding, it's a matter of preference. I have hundreds of albums on CD, Vinyl, purchased digital files on a media server drive, audio Blu-rays, SACDs, and even one DVD-Audio and one DTS CD. I also have hundreds of Blu-rays and 4K Blu-rays. That means that I have over a thousand different pieces of content, all with different bass, as I already explained twice.

So why would I set my subwoofer to one gain level when I know that it's going to sound great for some of that content, then it's going to sound excessive and house rattling for other content, and rather boring and small for other content? It seems to me that you guys don't listen to the amount of music I do from several different decades, and you watch movies from just the current and last decade, if a static subwoofer gain is good enough for you. It's definitely not for me. I love bass, so I want to hear it, at enjoyable levels, not excessive, and not poor. Just the right amount. If I choose the option that doesn't let me change the gain in the subwoofer, I'd be stuck with the same amount of sub-bass for everything. I'm a tweaker. I'm the guy that's adjusting everything to always get the best sound and picture, if it's a movie.

If you haven't learned by now, all the adjustments are made while in the Dirac environment (to your liking).

No, I learned that early on. And I wouldn't mind so much if it allowed to play music while working on the curve.

If you don't like the sound after a proper Dirac calibration, then Dirac is not for you (a conclusion that nearly everyone in this thread is coming to).

You might conclude what you want, I don't care particularly if you or anyone think Dirac is for me or not. The only thing that makes Dirac worth the $1,100 + tax I paid for the RZ50 is the parametric EQ. If it wasn't for that, the Pioneer VSX-935 is a much better unit because it goes up to 12 dB for each band. It baffles me that the same company decides to put a poorer version of the native equalizer in a receiver that is more than twice the price of the VSX-935. Why cut the bands at 6 dB? It doesn't make any sense. When I tried my best to use the internal EQ to my taste, I couldn't get close to the sound quality of the Pioneer. It's the parametric EQ in Dirac Live that makes this unit better than the Pioneer.

It's just that the process is a royal pain in the butt. All the measuring with so many positions, then everything else is backwards. First you have to switch to the points editing, then to apply the same curve that you did to the front channels to the rest, you have to save it as a file, then you have to open the menu again, go to load, then all groups, then load that curve for all the groups. It's idiotic. Why not have a simple command that applies the front group curve to all the others except the subwoofer?

But applying the curve is just part of the job. Then you have to go group by group to open the "curtain", because as it is, it's only open between like 200 Hz and 2 Khz. What the hell is that about? I want my curve to affect the full spectrum, not just a narrow range of frequencies.

Then I have to push the curve to the receiver, which given that it's just a few KBs, it should be instant, since my PC and the Onkyo are both connected to the same router with ethernet cables. It's a rather new router from a year ago, and my PC connects at 2.5 Gbps to it, and I assume the Onkyo at 1 Gbps, but even if it does at 100 Mbps, it should transfer the file in a second, and it takes several seconds.

Everything in this program feels like it was designed to be unnecessarily complicated and take more steps than it has to for no good reason. It's upsetting to see something that could be so much better, be such a pain to use. I shouldn't have to waste hours first running the tests, then adjusting and pushing, adjusting and pushing. This should be much more simple and effective. I should be able to load the web interface for the RZ50 like I do many times, there would be a parametric EQ as part of that interface, with about 20 points, and I should have the easy choice to apply that curve to just certain speakers, or to all of them if I want, without having to do weird workflows like saving the curve to a file, then load it for all groups. Who the hell designed this? Do they know anything about UX?

Or, if it has to be through the Dirac Live app, fine, but give me that curve without having to waste time positioning the little mic on several places, just one is enough, and let me adjust that curve while listening to music. That way, I put the latest Foo Fighters album, followed by Metallica's black album, followed by James Newton Howard score for Signs track 12, then Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet on SACD, and finally Miles Davis' Kind of Blue on vinyl, followed by Tears for Fears' "Seeds of Love" audiophile vinyl. Still would take me some time, but it would a hell of a lot more enjoyable than sitting still not making any noise at all while I keep hearing wooooop! wooooooop!.

It shouldn't be called Dirac Live. It should be called MASTSE.

Most Annoying Sound Tweaking System Ever.

You fellas can defend it to death, but I'm going by simple common sense here. I want to adjust my sound to what I find pleasing, not to what the sound engineers at Dirac think it is. Which is basically what you're doing with these measurements, setting up the sound to what they think you should be happy with, and I don't care for it.

What I know without a doubt is that if I invited each and every one of you to this room and play some music, all of you would say that this sounds amazing. Which is what everyone who has a chance to listen to music or watch a movie here says, and said even with the Pioneer VSX-935.

Dirac doesn't allow you to fiddle after the fact on the lower end units.

Well, I'm far from rich, in fact, if I had a sound system adequate to my income, I would be the typical guy that calls a sound bar "home theater". So this may be a "lower end unit", but to me it's the most expensive receiver I've ever bought, and for the most part I like it, it's just annoying to go through so many hoops to adjust the EQ to my liking.

 

[EWL5]

I see I won’t be able to overcome your cognitive bias. Enjoy your system!

 

[MaxwellsEq]

@Sounderista
1. Room Correction is something you do ONCE to minimise otherwise unavoidable room nodes.
2. Tone Controls are tools you use as frequently as you want to compensate for differences between recordings

This is a public service announcement.

 

[Sounderista]

I see I won’t be able to overcome your cognitive bias

Right, I don’t agree with your opinions, so I must have cognitive bias. Of course.

 

[EWL5]

Right, I don’t agree with your opinions, so I must have cognitive bias. Of course.

No. The issue is you're taking something that was not meant to be changed (eloquently summarized by @MaxwellsEq) and saying it doesn't work properly. You're not familiar with modern room correction so it must be wrong. LOL!

It's a blessing that you have no interest in Dirac DLBC or ART!

 

[Sounderista]

1. Room Correction is something you do ONCE to minimise otherwise unavoidable room nodes.
2. Tone Controls are tools you use as frequently as you want to compensate for differences between recordings

Call it whatever you want, I want to have easy access to change all the frequencies I want at any time, without having to open a program on my computer and go through several steps just to adjust this frequency or another.

By the way, this doesn’t apply only to my Sansui SE-7 equalizer. It also applies to current devices like my Qudelix 5K and T71, and FiiO F15 DACs, and my Pioneer VSX-935, which has a much better mobile app than the Onkyo, one which allows to adjust its 10 band EQ for all channels. That said, it only applies to the current session. When you turn off the receiver, that EQ defaults to flat, and you can only load the preset you had created earlier if you load it. And it’s only one preset, because Onkyo/Pioneer seem to have some engineers that are geniuses and other that are idiots. The smart ones say “Let’s add an EQ to the phone app that sits on top of the MCACC one!”, and the idiots say “Ok, but let’s make it so it doesn’t stick past the power off event!”.

Still, it’s an easy access EQ, the way it should be. Always.

 

[Sounderista]

No. The issue is you're taking something that was not meant to be changed (eloquently summarized by @MaxwellsEq) and saying it doesn't work properly

No, I’m not saying it doesn’t work properly. I’m saying the design is completely idiotic and backwards. It works as it was designed. By people who enjoy making things far more complicated than they have to be.

 

[EngineerNate]

If you need more than 6db of EQ from source to source one of the sources is broken.

 

[EWL5]

No, I’m not saying it doesn’t work properly. I’m saying the design is completely idiotic and backwards. It works as it was designed. By people who enjoy making things far more complicated than they have to be.

Yes, everyone’s an idiot and you’re the only one that’s not. Do you read your own posts?!!!

 

[Sounderista]

Yes, everyone’s an idiot and you’re the only one that’s not.

Ah, the typical internet forum. Here we start with the personal attacks, but falling short of straight insults. I'm an idiot because I don't think like you, and some of the people that posted in this thread, even though I never called or even insinuated that you or anyone else in this thread is an idiot. In any case I said that Pioneer/Onkyo has some idiots working for them, as well as many brilliant people.

You can never ever have an opinion these days without tons of people calling you a moron or similar. You wanna think I'm an idiot? Go ahead, please.

Do you read your own posts?!!!

Yes, and I stand by everything I typed in them. It's my opinion. If you don't like it, I couldn't give a damn. It will continue to be my opinion, and yours will be yours. They don't have to match. But I will continue to say that Dirac Live is a backwards, idiotic calibration system that has one advantage only, and that is that as far as I know, it's the only thing included in a modern receiver that provides a parametric EQ. That's its only value for me, and it's perfectly fine if you think it's the best invention in the history of humanity. But I don't see why my opinion has to be the same as yours, or anyone else's. I'm an individual, I form my own opinions, and if you think they're wrong, I don't give a damn.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

ASR isn’t really the right forum for these kind of whiny complaint rants.

If you have an actual technical issue you’re trying to resolve, or something you’re trying to understand, we’re here for you.

That isn’t what’s happening here.

 

[peng]

Ah, the typical internet forum. Here we start with the personal attacks, but falling short of straight insults. I'm an idiot because I don't think like you, and some of the people that posted in this thread, even though I never called or even insinuated that you or anyone else in this thread is an idiot. In any case I said that Pioneer/Onkyo has some idiots working for them, as well as many brilliant people.

You can never ever have an opinion these days without tons of people calling you a moron or similar. You wanna think I'm an idiot? Go ahead, please.


Yes, and I stand by everything I typed in them. It's my opinion. If you don't like it, I couldn't give a damn. It will continue to be my opinion, and yours will be yours. They don't have to match. But I will continue to say that Dirac Live is a backwards, idiotic calibration system that has one advantage only, and that is that as far as I know, it's the only thing included in a modern receiver that provides a parametric EQ. That's its only value for me, and it's perfectly fine if you think it's the best invention in the history of humanity. But I don't see why my opinion has to be the same as yours, or anyone else's. I'm an individual, I form my own opinions, and if you think they're wrong, I don't give a damn.

As far as I know, DL has their own that uses what they called mixed phase FIR and IIR filters so it is not just PEQ and you cannot use PEQ with it directly post calibration. You can shape the TC like you have done, but that’s not the same as using your own PEQ filters on top of it. Yamaha’s YPAO that uses IIR filters will let you do it but limited to 7 bands per channel.

 

[Oddball]

No. The issue is you're taking something that was not meant to be changed (eloquently summarized by @MaxwellsEq) and saying it doesn't work properly. You're not familiar with modern room correction so it must be wrong. LOL!

It's a blessing that you have no interest in Dirac DLBC or ART!

I agree. The last thing I would want is to bring this kind of havoc to ART threads. So let's light a candle for that and make a wish.

What people do with their systems is their own thing. As other members noted, we are here to help, but not to read rants.

If someone wants to showcase how well they have done, graphs would go a long way. As some people know, never shy to show the photos and REWs of my system that look and sound well.