Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[dlaloum]

X4800? Is that the same as the 4800H? That actually runs your high impedance speakers? Interesting.

Yes, my thinking is that it is not a current/power supply/power constraint (as my listening levels are quite moderate - average 75db @ MLP - circa 1W) - but that the amp design is stable into the reactive low impedance load... so it doesn't have rising THD that pollutes the sound.

So yes the X4800H is doing surprisingly well, and I have been running for weeks without my external power amps.

 

[dlaloum]

That is interesting - I think they would get a lot more evaluations and sales if they offered a longer trial. But I might consider it. I run 2 AVRs with Audyssey (one for music/movies/gaming) and another for quality music listening - the 4800h is in preamp mode.

I believe Dirac have a free trial (14 days) available for the base Dirac Live licence, but they also have a full refund policy for the Dirac ART suite (which includes Dirac Live, Dirac Live Bass Control, and Dirac Live ART) - which provides 30 days within which you can get a full refund... but yes you do have to pay up front for the latter option.

 

[dlaloum]

That is interesting - I think they would get a lot more evaluations and sales if they offered a longer trial. But I might consider it. I run 2 AVRs with Audyssey (one for music/movies/gaming) and another for quality music listening - the 4800h is in preamp mode.

Dirac Live - the base product (as included with the Onkyo's) - is very close in capabilities to Audyssey - and assuming you use one of the various improved interface apps to adjust Audyssey, then the results achievable with DL vs Audy are much of a muchness. (and probably not worth the time in testing one vs the other)

Dirac ART is a completely different beast - pricey by comparison, but very high value given what it can achieve, and yes, it is worth the time and effort.

(and a real shame Onkyo has chosen not to integrate ART into its current generation, as I would still happily be using Onkyo/Integra gear if they had - the faithful will have to wait another 2 years to have an ART capability within the Onkyo family)

 

[techsamurai]

Dirac ART is a completely different beast - pricey by comparison, but very high value given what it can achieve, and yes, it is worth the time and effort.

Does ART have the same benefits with 1 sub or speakers that play full range?

 

[EWL5]

Does ART have the same benefits with 1 sub or speakers that play full range?

The benefit for ART comes with as many full range speakers and SWs as you can get. This criteria has unfortunately knocked out ART consideration for me!

 

[techsamurai]

The benefit for ART comes with as many full range speakers and SWs as you can get. This criteria has unfortunately knocked out ART consideration for me!

Does this mean that the benefit increases with more subs and full range speakers and it's much smaller for 1 sub?

 

[techsamurai]

I don't want to say bad things about a product that someone owns and enjoys but I couldn't keep the RZ50. It had an amazing featureset and DIRAC and is a great value.

For me, it was very thunderous like you'd expect from an Onkyo and turned my living room into a movie theater - like a real movie theater. I have huge bass extension on my LCR so I could be watching a commercial and it would be crazy. The sound was impressive but in a living room and with TV shows, it was too much.

The issue for me was music and for whatever reason my previous AVR and the entire setup including the room, the center channel, the cabinet was a gift from the Gods of Music - I'm agnostic but they chose me and gave me the sound of that AVR in my room. Few people in their lifetimes will ever hear sound like that and I heard it all the time for 20 years to the point that I took it for granted and even assumed people were listening to better sound. Had I not been lucky, I'd be buried under amps the size of a coffin, speakers twice my size, and cables that could be used to pull a boat and I'd own more measuring equipment than anyone here.

So yeah an old AVR can sound better than another AVR.

In my case my AVR was the choice of reviewers for playing music and I understand why. If you are willing to spend a lifetime tuning your system, you could get great sound out of most AVRs that offer room correction.

But there are AVRs that will literally make your jaw drop where you don't expect it with music in movies, 2 channel, and even games. But luck has to shine on you to get that absolutely perfect color skin on a TV. Even the best calibrators cannot fix that if the TV won't do it- they can get great skin tones but they will never be perfect. Same with vocals or instruments.

I forgot to mention the soundstage - the Onkyo RZ50 produced a soundstage that was larger than the Denon 4800h and the Cinema 70. It was vastly larger than the 8002 which had a smaller soundstage and almost vocals just fly directly at you as opposed to dispersing around the room.

I'd say the RZ50 was a concert level stage while the 8002 was almost a small bar with the performers sitting right in front of you. I played with EQ and it's insane the impact it has on soundstage. It's like taking your TV screen and stretching it from 55 inches, 110 inches, or 165 inches. Obviously since the source is the same, the image gets a bit washed out and I suspect perhaps high-res sound may help with that dilution but I'm just speculating based on how 8k or 16k would resolve the same issue on larger TVs.

 

[EWL5]

Does this mean that the benefit increases with more subs and full range speakers and it's much smaller for 1 sub?

Yes to all.

 

[EWL5]

I forgot to mention the soundstage - the Onkyo RZ50 produced a soundstage that was larger than the Denon 4800h and the Cinema 70. It was vastly larger than the 8002 which had a smaller soundstage and almost vocals just fly directly at you as opposed to dispersing around the room.

I'd say the RZ50 was a concert level stage while the 8002 was almost a small bar with the performers sitting right in front of you. I played with EQ and it's insane the impact it has on soundstage. It's like taking your TV screen and stretching it from 55 inches, 110 inches, or 165 inches. Obviously since the source is the same, the image gets a bit washed out and I suspect perhaps high-res sound may help with that dilution but I'm just speculating based on how 8k or 16k would resolve the same issue on larger TVs.

I’m sure I’ve mentioned to you before but all AVRs in this price range should be equally transparent and have similar soundstages. Differences are caused by EQ and other idiosyncrasies from makes. For your Denon:

1) Turn off MRC if using Audyssey
2) Make sure Loudness Control is off for Dolby.

 

[techsamurai]

I’m sure I’ve mentioned to you before but all AVRs in this price range should be equally transparent and have similar soundstages. Differences are caused by EQ and other idiosyncrasies from makes. For your Denon:

1) Turn off MRC if using Audyssey
2) Make sure Loudness Control is off for Dolby.

you mean in Pure Direct Mode, they should sound the same, right? I'm testing that with the Denon 4800h and the "ancient" Marantz 8002. I didn't test it with the RZ50 - I should have.

In Pure Direct Mode, they sounded different enough that I found one musical and the other not so musical. The 4800h is in pre-amp mode, the 8002 is amplifying it so I'm just testing its pre-amp to the Marantz's pre-amp to keep things as close as possible.

I have to connect a CD Player or Wiim Ultra to eliminate the DACs but they should not make a difference. I'll find out after I do that.

I'm very curious to see if I can hear differences and when I say "hear", I mean if my brain can detect differences.

Why couldn't the 4800h and RZ50 just sound 10x better than the 8002? Why, oh why? It would have saved me so much trouble, money, and effort.

 

[MbphotoX]

Before you bother trying to "hear" differences, I strongly recommend getting a digital SPL meter to measure the output volume of both and match that. Ideally, if you have a multimeter, I would even suggest to level match the output using the voltage at the speaker terminals.

Running the Denon as pre-amp into the Marantz, then comparing them.. that should absolutely result in the exact same sound, period.
(Both of them have absolutely flat frequency responses, and the Marantz using very bad/slow DAC shouldn't matter, unless you're in your twenties and hear beyond what normal humans do.. like Golden Ear, when he actually was able to tell the difference between DACs.. because HE can hear 23kHz.. which is insane)

Marantz has a long-lasting history of "sounding" their amplifiers, but I have never seen measurements of their AVRs that would suggest they're doing it there, too.

 

[EWL5]

you mean in Pure Direct Mode, they should sound the same, right? I'm testing that with the Denon 4800h and the "ancient" Marantz 8002. I didn't test it with the RZ50 - I should have.

In Pure Direct Mode, they sounded different enough that I found one musical and the other not so musical. The 4800h is in pre-amp mode, the 8002 is amplifying it so I'm just testing its pre-amp to the Marantz's pre-amp to keep things as close as possible.

I have to connect a CD Player or Wiim Ultra to eliminate the DACs but they should not make a difference. I'll find out after I do that.

I'm very curious to see if I can hear differences and when I say "hear", I mean if my brain can detect differences.

Why couldn't the 4800h and RZ50 just sound 10x better than the 8002? Why, oh why? It would have saved me so much trouble, money, and effort.

Yes, but even some Pure Direct may still involve the SW (very minimal DSP). Depends on the make.

 

[MbphotoX]

Yes, but even some Pure Direct may still involve the SW (very minimal DSP). Depends on the make.

yeah, true..
And apparently some AVRs will send the entire stereo signal to the subwoofer, which will cause a lot more sound than during movies, since the crossover on the subwoofer is usually disabled.. (so the subwoofer will play to 200-500 Hz depending on what it can manage..)

best to disable subwoofers for that test, then

 

[dlaloum]

Does ART have the same benefits with 1 sub or speakers that play full range?

Well assuming both cover the same frequency range (sub vs 2x full range) - then the 2x full range would have the advantage as they have two differing geographic locations (which affects nodes/modes etc) - and two active support speakers.

The down side typically comes down to the difference between "normal" (!!) speakers vs subs - typically the speakers have a more constrained max SPL in the bass regions - and also often have more limited frequency range... Full range speakers can be 40Hz-20khz subs, will typically go lower.

Having said that, it is not always the case.

My main L/R have the exact same woofer as my subs, and according to specs the same lower end limits - as installed I get a couple of HZ more out of the sub than I get from the mains, but there isn't a lot in it!

So I would say 2x capable full rangers, would do better than just a single sub with mains being crossed over and limited... (and more caveats: mains that cover the 80Hz to 150Hz range, along with a single sub will provide better results in the 80-150 range than just the single sub on its own... but then you have the sub flying solo below 80Hz... and what can be achieved there will as a result be limited)

 

[dlaloum]

Does this mean that the benefit increases with more subs and full range speakers and it's much smaller for 1 sub?

Benefit increase with more "support speakers" - with benefits accruing from 2 speakers and up.

Whatever the frequency limitations are of your speakers - the benefits will be available in whatever frequency ranges you have 2 or more speakers

So with typical THX speakers limited to 80Hz - you still get the benefit from 80 to 150Hz

And most typical THX speakers have an actual lower end going down to 60Hz - so you can get a bit more from them