Onkyo TX-RZ30

[EWL5]

Well from an amp perspective (how much power and/or current it puts out) the two seem to be the same!

The "limp" mode is referred to in the status screen as "protection" - so my answer would be.... yes?

They are not the same to me.

Protection mode - clear to the owner that the AVR will not continue operating. May require repair or reset. Can easily be triggered by a short (like when 2 bare speaker wires touch).

Limp mode - coined by Amir on the 7100 bench test and perfectly matches when you described the sound from your DRX3.4 as "confused" and "lacked clarity". The AVR continues to run but at greatly diminished capacity. Most folks are unaware of this issue unless they are reading the forums.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/confused-by-receiver-power-draw.3247688/?post_id=61774001#post-61774001

 

[dlaloum]

They are not the same to me.

Protection mode - clear to the owner that the AVR will not continue operating. May require repair or reset. Can easily be triggered by a short (like when 2 bare speaker wires touch).

Limp mode - coined by Amir on the 7100 bench test and perfectly matches when you described the sound from your DRX3.4 as "confused" and "lacked clarity". The AVR continues to run but at greatly diminished capacity. Most folks are unaware of this issue unless they are reading the forums.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/confused-by-receiver-power-draw.3247688/?post_id=61774001#post-61774001

So what you (and Amir) describe as "Limp Mode" - is tracked in the web interface status screen as "Protection"

Which is different from the full shutdown that happens when the AVR detects a short.

I agree there is confusion - but given the manufacturer/designer have chosen the nomenclature "protection" for "limp mode" - I suggest an alternate term is needed for the protective full shutdown feature.

And I will reiterate - the confused sound I described, happened without the AVR entering what you term "limp mode" - the status screen did NOT indicate that Protection was "on".

 

[EWL5]

So what you (and Amir) describe as "Limp Mode" - is tracked in the web interface status screen as "Protection"

Which is different from the full shutdown that happens when the AVR detects a short.

I agree there is confusion - but given the manufacturer/designer have chosen the nomenclature "protection" for "limp mode" - I suggest an alternate term is needed for the protective full shutdown feature.

And I will reiterate - the confused sound I described, happened without the AVR entering what you term "limp mode" - the status screen did NOT indicate that Protection was "on".

So when does Protection ever turn “on” in the web interface? Have you seen this?

 

[dlaloum]

So when does Protection ever turn “on” in the web interface? Have you seen this?

No I have never seen it turn on.

And as I have said elsewhere - I don't know of any examples of the protection/limp mode being triggered in real life use... as opposed to on the lab bench.

5W continuous, with my 86db/w SPL speakers (which are relatively inefficient!) - with 2 speakers (stereo) at a listening distance of 2.3m (my setup) - that would be roughly 92db SPL continuous.... That is VERY loud.... far louder than what I would listen to anything at... continuously.

My average listening levels (using my vintage radio shack SPL meter) tend to be around 72db continuous....

Allowing for 20db of headroom/peak - that takes me to 92db.... and roughly 5W PEAK.

I have trouble imagining what it would sound like run at 92db average/continuous with 112db peaks (!!!) - those peaks would require circa 500W@8ohm or 1000W@4ohm (!!)

Hence I consider amirm's test to be a "torture test" - which does not make it invalid, but does mean one needs to approach its interpretation with caution.

With ten recent years of massive warranty returns due to heat in their AVR's (the cause of which are well understood and have been discussed elsewhere) - I can totally understand why Onkyo chose to choose an overly cautious approach.

I particularly appreciate the fact that they have OVER engineered the heat dissipation on these AVR's and they run cooler than pretty much any component on my rack - which bodes well for longevity.... unlike my expired SR876 and DTR70.4, both of which sounded great, but ran seriously very very hot....

 

[peng]

No I have never seen it turn on.

And as I have said elsewhere - I don't know of any examples of the protection/limp mode being triggered in real life use... as opposed to on the lab bench.

5W continuous, with my 86db/w SPL speakers (which are relatively inefficient!) - with 2 speakers (stereo) at a listening distance of 2.3m (my setup) - that would be roughly 92db SPL continuous.... That is VERY loud.... far louder than what I would listen to anything at... continuously.

My average listening levels (using my vintage radio shack SPL meter) tend to be around 72db continuous....

Allowing for 20db of headroom/peak - that takes me to 92db.... and roughly 5W PEAK.

I have trouble imagining what it would sound like run at 92db average/continuous with 112db peaks (!!!) - those peaks would require circa 500W@8ohm or 1000W@4ohm (!!)

Hence I consider amirm's test to be a "torture test" - which does not make it invalid, but does mean one needs to approach its interpretation with caution.

With ten recent years of massive warranty returns due to heat in their AVR's (the cause of which are well understood and have been discussed elsewhere) - I can totally understand why Onkyo chose to choose an overly cautious approach.

I particularly appreciate the fact that they have OVER engineered the heat dissipation on these AVR's and they run cooler than pretty much any component on my rack - which bodes well for longevity.... unlike my expired SR876 and DTR70.4, both of which sounded great, but ran seriously very very hot....

Again, we have had this similar conversation before, you, Amir, others? That is, how do we know for sure the web interface's "protect" indicate the unit is not in "limp mode"? Did you get it from Onkyo or Pioneer, that confirm your interpretation? Sorry about so many questions, but I find the whole thing confusing...

Onkyo needs to do a better job explaining their "protect" mode especially if it does not shut the unit down. With Denon/Marantz, at least we know their protect mode would shut the unit down, and we also know how their ECO mode would reduce rail voltage and EWL5 isn't exactly right about his interpretation that "A true "ECO mode" allows for the dynamics to return when needed and would never exhibit what you and others have experienced!". It is a fact that when ECO is set to auto, the mode will get triggered on by the volume setting, and once triggered "On", it would stay there until the volume setting is turned down below a certain point, but even then there is a substantial delay before it turns off. So D+M ECO mode in auto does work somewhat like "limp mode", but not by intention, and obviously not the same, just similar to some extent.

I think such a limp mode, could be the real reason you felt the avr wasn't "happy" with your speakers that dips to 1.6 ohm. If not for such a similarly ill conceived mode, your speakers may be happy enough if that 1.6 ohm dip is narrow enough, and/or you don't listen loud enough, sit far enough etc.. As always, everything depends....!!

 

[EWL5]

No I have never seen it turn on.

And as I have said elsewhere - I don't know of any examples of the protection/limp mode being triggered in real life use... as opposed to on the lab bench.

5W continuous, with my 86db/w SPL speakers (which are relatively inefficient!) - with 2 speakers (stereo) at a listening distance of 2.3m (my setup) - that would be roughly 92db SPL continuous.... That is VERY loud.... far louder than what I would listen to anything at... continuously.

My average listening levels (using my vintage radio shack SPL meter) tend to be around 72db continuous....

Allowing for 20db of headroom/peak - that takes me to 92db.... and roughly 5W PEAK.

I have trouble imagining what it would sound like run at 92db average/continuous with 112db peaks (!!!) - those peaks would require circa 500W@8ohm or 1000W@4ohm (!!)

Hence I consider amirm's test to be a "torture test" - which does not make it invalid, but does mean one needs to approach its interpretation with caution.

With ten recent years of massive warranty returns due to heat in their AVR's (the cause of which are well understood and have been discussed elsewhere) - I can totally understand why Onkyo chose to choose an overly cautious approach.

I particularly appreciate the fact that they have OVER engineered the heat dissipation on these AVR's and they run cooler than pretty much any component on my rack - which bodes well for longevity.... unlike my expired SR876 and DTR70.4, both of which sounded great, but ran seriously very very hot....

Also, Amir's torture test was with 2 channels driven (if memory serves, it clipped at 35W into each of the 2 channels). You had attempted to get decent sound from the internal amps to 5 speakers! Power per channel dramatically drops as soon as you go above 2 and you were powering 5 (I'm guessing all 5 were low impedance)! What you described sounds like you were squarely in the limp mode!

 

[EWL5]

Again, we have had this similar conversation before, you, Amir, others? That is, how do we know for sure the web interface's "protect" indicate the unit is not in "limp mode"? Did you get it from Onkyo or Pioneer, that confirm your interpretation? Sorry about so many questions, but I find the whole thing confusing...

Onkyo needs to do a better job explaining their "protect" mode especially if it does not shut the unit down. With Denon/Marantz, at least we know their protect mode would shut the unit down, and we also know how their ECO mode would reduce rail voltage and EWL5 isn't exactly right about his interpretation that "A true "ECO mode" allows for the dynamics to return when needed and would never exhibit what you and others have experienced!". It is a fact that when ECO is set to auto, the mode will get triggered on by the volume setting, and once triggered "On", it would stay there until the volume setting is turned down below a certain point, but even then there is a substantial delay before it turns off. So D+M ECO mode in auto does work somewhat like "limp mode", but not by intention, and obviously not the same, just similar to some extent.

I think such a limp mode, could be the real reason you felt the avr wasn't "happy" with your speakers that dips to 1.6 ohm. If not for such a similarly ill conceived mode, your speakers may be happy enough if that 1.6 ohm dip is narrow enough, and/or you don't listen loud enough, sit far enough etc.. As always, everything depends....!!

My point being that a true "ECO mode" is:

1) Defeatable by the owner
2) Is obvious that it is "ON" or "OFF".

Anything other than the above is just gamesmanship by the manufacturer. The lack of standardization from the AVR industry allows one person's "ECO mode" or "Protection" to be different from another!

 

[dlaloum]

Also, Amir's torture test was with 2 channels driven (if memory serves, it clipped at 35W into each of the 2 channels). You had attempted to get decent sound from the internal amps to 5 speakers! Power per channel dramatically drops as soon as you go above 2 and you were powering 5 (I'm guessing all 5 were low impedance)! What you described sounds like you were squarely in the limp mode!

Actually no, my testing was done in stereo only initially, and then 5.1 - but we are now in the circle of confusion as I believe the "limp mode" to be the same as the "protection" status and you don't.... making this discussion somewhat pointless.

 

[EWL5]

Actually no, my testing was done in stereo only initially, and then 5.1 - but we are now in the circle of confusion as I believe the "limp mode" to be the same as the "protection" status and you don't.... making this discussion somewhat pointless.

What were some of the symptoms as reported by others when Protection was “On” in the web interface?

 

[dlaloum]

What were some of the symptoms as reported by others when Protection was “On” in the web interface?

As I said earlier - no known instances of it been activated in the field.

 

[EWL5]

As I said earlier - no known instances of it been activated in the field.

Then you have your answer how "useful" the Voxx definition of "Protection" is.
There's no question in my mind that limp mode is active and attractive for low impedance systems!

 

[EWL5]

According to the latest Dirac changelog for Dirac Live Beta 3.11 (2024-10-25), the following continues to be a known issue:
"Filter export to devices from Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer take longer time than usual, but it eventually completes."

As the above is primarily referencing the 2021 Voxx line of products, I fully expect the new RZ30 to not have this issue.
Since the RZ30 is already fully compatible w/DLBM and DLBC from the get go, I do expect some SOC hardware to fully address what has been plaguing 2021 owners for years!

Dirac Live Beta 3.11 // 2024-10-25 | Dirac Live

Changes listed are relative to the latest public stable release.FeaturesDelay alignment update: The delay compensation for speaker distance alignment has previously been slightly confusing in that the shown delay values have not corresponded exactly to the measured acoustic delay. This has been...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Hoping we have some bench tests and/or owner feedback on the RZ30 soon!

 

[ulises31]

RZ30 vs rz30

 

[bbanderic]

According to the latest Dirac changelog for Dirac Live Beta 3.11 (2024-10-25), the following continues to be a known issue:
"Filter export to devices from Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer take longer time than usual, but it eventually completes."

As the above is primarily referencing the 2021 Voxx line of products, I fully expect the new RZ30 to not have this issue.
Since the RZ30 is already fully compatible w/DLBM and DLBC from the get go, I do expect some SOC hardware to fully address what has been plaguing 2021 owners for years!

Dirac Live Beta 3.11 // 2024-10-25 | Dirac Live

Changes listed are relative to the latest public stable release.FeaturesDelay alignment update: The delay compensation for speaker distance alignment has previously been slightly confusing in that the shown delay values have not corresponded exactly to the measured acoustic delay. This has been...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Hoping we have some bench tests and/or owner feedback on the RZ30 soon!

Me too, I'm currently looking at the RZ30 to replace my old Denon X3300. I would prefer if it had specs like the RZ50, a little more power, two more channels. The RZ50 is out for me since it's already three years old. I'd also hate to buy the RZ30 and then a replacement for the RZ50 come out soon. The RZ30 will probably be good enough since my system is currently 5.1.2 and I'm sure it's fine but I may want to add to my system in the future. We'll see, I don't know if I can wait LOL.

 

[ban25]

Me too, I'm currently looking at the RZ30 to replace my old Denon X3300. I would prefer if it had specs like the RZ50, a little more power, two more channels. The RZ50 is out for me since it's already three years old. I'd also hate to buy the RZ30 and then a replacement for the RZ50 come out soon. The RZ30 will probably be good enough since my system is currently 5.1.2 and I'm sure it's fine but I may want to add to my system in the future. We'll see, I don't know if I can wait LOL.

If you're just looking for a 9-channel system, the RZ30 is likely all you will ever need. You could also keep an eye out for Black Friday deals on an RZ70 if you want to stretch, but honestly, you just need to buy the unit that has the features you want for the size of your system.

 

[Timcognito]

You could also keep an eye out for Black Friday deals on an RZ70 if you want to stretch,

$999 Best Buy for RZ30

 

[ban25]

$999 Best Buy

Incredible deal! I paid $1800 for a Denon X3700H new at Best Buy during the pandemic...

 

[ulises31]

Hello, Indold m'y rz50. And I replaced It buva Marantz cinema 40. Dirac IS off when THX cinema, THX audio and unplugged are usted. So the other sounds options even if they are calibrated with Dirac, I prefer thx, so not interested on Dirac for these reasons.

 

[billiethebob]

What are advantages of RZ30 over RZ50? I just bought the RZ50 a few days ago for $900, but I'll get the RZ30 or something else if that would be better.

 

[EWL5]

What are advantages of RZ30 over RZ50? I just bought the RZ50 a few days ago for $900, but I'll get the RZ30 or something else if that would be better.

Only advantages I'm aware of are 2 discrete sub-outs and a newer HDMI board.