Onkyo TX-RZ30 AV Receiver Review

[EWL5]

Basically the same way but the "W" is tricky because while he consistently appears to pick the "knee point", but different amps have different slope so you will get different values.

Examples:

For the RZ30, it was 162 W, SINAD: 63 dB
For the X3800H, it was 168 W, SINAD: 87 dB

If you compare them both based on 1% THD+N, that is SINAD: 40 dB
then:

RZ30 - unknown because Amir could not do that test due to limp mode kicking in, @popej quoted Audiovision.de's 186 W, I am not sure if they in fact based their output measurements on 1% THD+N but my guess is that it would be close so in that case, the RZ30 and X3800H's output into 4 ohms 2 channel driven are comparable. Even if not, practically speaking we all know in dB, even 100 W vs 200 W is only 3 dB, that's a few clicks on the volume dial.

X3800H - 184 W

To me, "W" really is not much use in many cases, but I will be repeating myself for the millionth time, that one should just figure out their voltage and current requirements and forget about power, unless one has enough "power" on hand such as using 300 W/500 W 8/4 ohms, then sure, don't worry about voltage/current because one would most likely have much more than enough for their need. Caveat, there are always someone who has large tower speakers that dips to 2 ohms and have recommended power spec of 300-1000 W, sensitivity in the low 80's sitting >4 meters in a large room. Can't please everyone right!

So in a lot of cases, I would imagine the RZ30 should have no worry except some who need high enough current that would activate the limp mode.




View attachment 540087View attachment 540089

I'll repeat again: the purpose of Amir stopping at the "knee" is to separate the part of the curve that is sensitive to change vs not. As an example, if we look at the RZ30 curve that "limited":

From 1W to 20W, the RZ30 curve is fairly linear and characterized by the formula
SINAD = -4.005698*ln(W) - 68 [W is of course power in Watts]

However, just past the "knee" at 36W and all the way to 50W, the curve takes a very sensitive turn that is sharply upward and now characterized by
SINAD = 136.9846*ln(W)-565.8869!

Note: remember that the x-axis power scale is logarithmic

Due to the 4.005698 multiplier, the region b/w 1W to 20W is relatively "insensitive" and SINAD slowly increases w/increasing power output (before the "knee"). However, the 136.9846 multiplier after 36W has a very rapid and sharp decrease in SINAD w/increasing power output and is therefore sensitive (region after the "knee"). You can check my math but I believe this clearly illustrates why anything after the "knee" is not desirable and should not be credited as an AVR's capability as the curve falls off a cliff!

 

[peng]

I'll repeat again: the purpose of Amir stopping at the "knee" is to separate the part of the curve that is sensitive to change vs not. As an example, if we look at the RZ30 curve that "limited":

Obviously!. Picking the knee point is a good way, though practically not really "better". 2X => 3 dB spl difference, so who cares if it is 166 vs 168 W? That's less than 1 click (<0.1 dB) difference on the volume dial.

I have no interest in looking at the RZ30 "limited". If I had purchased one, it would have been used as preamp/dac and in the unlikely event if I used it as AVR, it would not be operating anywhere close to the limp mode triggering point. That's just me, and I would not have purchased one anyway regardless because for whatever reason, in Canada it has not been at prices lower than that of the AVR-X3800H, that had been on sale for C$1400, that's US$1,000, and is superior when used with DLBC, imo.

 

[EWL5]

Obviously!. Picking the knee point is a good way, though practically not really "better". 2X => 3 dB spl difference, so who cares if it is 166 vs 168 W? That's less than 1 click (<0.1 dB) difference on the volume dial.

I have no interest in looking at the RZ30 "limited". If I had purchased one, it would have been used as preamp/dac and in the unlikely event if I used it as AVR, it would not be operating anywhere close to the limp mode triggering point. That's just me, and I would not have purchased one anyway regardless because for whatever reason, in Canada it has not been at prices lower than that of the AVR-X3800H, that had been on sale for C$1400, that's US$1,000, and is superior when used with DLBC, imo.

I chose the RZ30 curve as an illustration point for why the "knee" is chosen (I could just have easily done the math for the 3800). I tried to make it understandable for both engineers and non-engineers alike and have no idea how successful I was.

The RZ30 will continue to sell. It appears that Canada has no regulations on power reporting by amps/AVRs as we do with the FTC in the US!

 

[Miker 1102]

Fair but not seeing $1k 3800H's and not bashing those who want or have them. Challenging those who thumb their noses at the RZ30 because it failed a very rigorous test that rarely shows up with actual use and pontificate about how bad they are. I think there is of bang for the buck at $800 and features not found under $1.5k

This is a pretty fair statement.

 

[Soulone]

Fair but not seeing $1k 3800H's and not bashing those who want or have them. Challenging those who thumb their noses at the RZ30 because it failed a very rigorous test that rarely shows up with actual use and pontificate about how bad they are. I think there is of bang for the buck at $800 and features not found under $1.5k

Many of us see it this way: for the price, that receiver offers a lot, especially considering that the main issue identified doesn’t seem to affect or worry most owners. I also understand the purpose of this forum — evaluating components strictly from a design‑based perspective — and I think that’s perfectly valid.

That said, I also think it’s fair to point out what I see as certain contradictions in some evaluations. For example, awarding the golfing panther to headphones only when filters are applied. Wouldn’t the RZ30 also be recommended under certain circumstances (budget, room size, etc.)? In the end, every evaluation carries some degree of subjectivity, even if it’s small — it’s inevitable....

 

[popej]

Measurements are facts.
Recommendation is an opinion.

Since we get all facts, we can form our own opinion.

 

[peng]

Many of us see it this way: for the price, that receiver offers a lot, especially considering that the main issue identified doesn’t seem to affect or worry most owners. I also understand the purpose of this forum — evaluating components strictly from a design‑based perspective — and I think that’s perfectly valid.

That said, I also think it’s fair to point out what I see as certain contradictions in some evaluations. For example, awarding the golfing panther to headphones only when filters are applied. Wouldn’t the RZ30 also be recommended under certain circumstances (budget, room size, etc.)? In the end, every evaluation carries some degree of subjectivity, even if it’s small — it’s inevitable....

From what I can see, Amir usually based his opinion on something that he made clear to some extent. For the RZ30, he wrote: "The power limiting alone is enough to make my blood boil."

For the Denon, he made it a little clearer:

"Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.

It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H."

In both cases, even if he did not make it clear enough for everyone, if one reads the fine print such as those quoted above, the hints are there. For example, if the "regression" that is obviously the drop of SINAD from around 96 dB to 87 dB in one graph (reminder: there are many) and the choice of a DAC chip that has specs well below that was used for the previous generation (he didn't say but we all know).

Also in both cases, people can tell for real world use of an AVR, the RZ30 should be fine if the owner does not push it to activate the protection mode, limp mode or normal/typical protection mode, and the X3800H is fine if the owner understands the 96 vs 87 dB is not going to be an audible issues except for some isolated use cases (a may be), but someone will rule it out as they might just be turned off (like Amir) by D+M's attitude (just seemingly) of seeing no need to substitute the AK4458 DAC chip that has around 107 dB SINAD to the TI chip that is rated only 93 dB, in some cases (like me) knowing full well means almost nothing for practical use in terms of the resulting sound quality.

 

[EWL5]

Fair but not seeing $1k 3800H's and not bashing those who want or have them. Challenging those who thumb their noses at the RZ30 because it failed a very rigorous test that rarely shows up with actual use and pontificate about how bad they are. I think there is of bang for the buck at $800 and features not found under $1.5k

You're not seeing $1k 3800s because of the stupid tariffs. No one's forcing anyone to buy the 3800 or the RZ30. You buy what you can afford.

If someone is selling the RZ30 and still making a profit at $800, then that's great for Onkyo. My estimation is that $800 is fairly close to cost for the 3800 and this would be before tariffs set in. Broken record again: you get what you pay for.

 

[Timcognito]

Broken record again: you get what you pay for.

Because of the features for the sales price the compared to price of the competition and the FACT that other than Amir virtually every owner/poster is seeing no power limitations, it is a bargain to get Dirac, 2 subs, pre-out, 7 ch and others. One gets a lot for what they paid. Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see anything that is this price range that compares. A lot people love driving Miatas that can't afford Porshes.

 

[Oddball]

Like anything, perception of value is relative. That is why there is a free market in most places and people buy what they perceive as value and meets their requirements. Looks like a bunch is satisfied with RZ30, some others might prefer 3800H with more features, and there is obviously a market for mid-market AVPs and high end AVPs. Good to have a choice to meet pretty much all preferences.

I'd say that Miata to Porche is a bit tall comparison. It's more like a good pork chop to ribeye. Both can taste really good, so often it's the cook that makes the difference.

 

[Timcognito]

Like anything, perception of value is relative. That is why there is a free market in most places and people buy what they perceive as value and meets their requirements. Looks like a bunch is satisfied with RZ30, some others might prefer 3800H with more features, and there is obviously a market for mid-market AVPs and high end AVPs. Good to have a choice to meet pretty much all preferences.

I'd say that Miata to Porche is a bit tall comparison. It's more like a good pork chop to ribeye. Both can taste really good, so often it's the cook that makes the difference.

or the driver

 

[Oddball]

or the driver

Lol, that would be very difficult as basic specs are way off - I'd take the cook skills instead.

 

[valerianf]

About the Panther rating, the RZ30 may have got a golfing panther as the cheaper "pre-amp" AVR thanks to its clean RCA output, performant DAC and low price ($800).
I really think that in its rating Amir is missing some user cases.
Not everybody is driving a Porsche or listening to Marantz AV10 ($7000).

 

[Mort]

Car analogy bingo!

 

[EWL5]

About the Panther rating, the RZ30 may have got a golfing panther as the cheaper "pre-amp" AVR thanks to its clean RCA output, performant DAC and low price ($800).
I really think that in its rating Amir is missing some user cases.
Not everybody is driving a Porsche or listening to Marantz AV10 ($7000).

Considering that Amir doesn't know if you're getting the RZ30 for its amp or its DAC, he has to test both (and its good to know both).

I agree the RZ30 would probably make a good prepro at the $800 price but the one buying for the amp will be able to make an informed decision based on Amir's testing.

 

[Timcognito]

I agree the RZ30 would probably make a good prepro at the $800 price but the one buying for the amp will be able to make an informed decision based on Amir's testing.

And thanks to his site, users experience without his crash test or even a power limitation instance. The problem is only no display warning and inconvenience of a new power up for something that appears to not happen in real use.

 

[EWL5]

Serious question: assuming the RZ30 and RZ50 are both THX Select, does the AVR running in the "unintended 4 ohm" mode invalidate this certification?

We have been saying that many people don't need "that much power" even when limping. However, THX certification assumes a certain output from a fixed distance and room volume, no?

 

[peng]

Serious question: assuming the RZ30 and RZ50 are both THX Select, does the AVR running in the "unintended 4 ohm" mode invalidate this certification?

My guess is that it would not invalidate..., as it depends on under what conditions the mode is triggered. It got triggered in one of Amir's power sweep test but a) THX may not test the device that way, they have their own standards used for their certifications, that obviously would be different for their different "Tier" ("Select" tier for some of Onkyo's as you alluded to), b) For their impedance dip test, they likely would engaged the 4 ohm setting, the "Select" tier is for shorter distance, smaller room, do those lower Onkyo models might just squeaked by.

The key is, we don't know how THX do their tests. For example, even if they use the 4 ohm setting to test the DUT's capability to deal with impedance dips to their likely standard of 3.2 ohms, they might do it for a very short duration, and the duration might just be short enough for the likes of the RZ30 to manage the momentarily current bursts even with the lowered rail voltage.

Unless we can find the details of the THX certification test protocols, we can't know the answer to your question, but the fact is, if Onkyo does specify THX Select certification then they somehow satisfied the requirements.